I would too, but you have to understand why the USA is blocking these cars from coming in. The cost of these cheap EVs are not based off of supply and demand. Its not even this cheap because of effectiveness or efficiencies. Its from the CCP subsidies. The CCP wants to dump on the competition in efforts to kill off anyone making a car, then start jacking up the price after they have market share.
That’s only half the truth though. The main reason why they’re so cheap is because they manufacture everything in the supply chain themselves. Everything. They have their own mines for their resources, they make their own batteries (which they’ve been doing for ages), they make their own electronics, they make their own software etc.
They also have a completely different mindset. For them they are rolling electrical devices with some software. They don’t need the knowhow of the traditional car manufacturers.
And then they bought the Audi designer along with his entire team to make the cars look good.
Edit: I’m talking about BYD. The rest is pretty much irrelevant.
Yes, there are efficiencies since all the tech is pretty close, but that pales in comparison to the sheer dollars injected into the industries. 231 billion dollars. Compare that to the 2nd closest investment into a car manufacturer which is the USA at 30 billion.
Each one of these new 500+ car manufacturers produced cars at a loss. Not because efficiencies. Because of subsidies. In some cases, not even sold at all. https://youtu.be/vplPmxVRcnk
My dude the US subsidizes the shit out of its electric car industry. When someone brings up “supply and demand” and just tries to pretend that the economy is exactly what they learned in their econ101 class.
They are doing the tarrifs on Chinese EVS because (1) they can’t compete on price and (2) the Chinese EVS are just a superior product.
You’re right on China though. They are just doing exactly what the US has done for decades. It’s just that the US doesn’t like having to actually compete with another country. So instead of actually making better and cheaper cars they instead just decide to tell the American people “nah, looks like you’re just being a shit Tesla”
The US loves to say “free market” but notice how they don’t allow a free market to force their industry to actually innovate and compete.
China is not “cheating” by subsidizing it’s industry. That’s literally just standard shit every government does. Thats just an excuse. America is subsidizing it’s EVs too. They just have worse EVs.
Trump is all about removing regulations and stated “for every new regulation, 10 must be revoked.” During his first term it was 2. He is moving the market that way, and boy oh boy is it going to suck for the consumer and small companies that want to compete.
So much to unpack here but I’ll do my best to address everything you’re saying here.
1- Chinese cars can’t compete in price: yes because China has been dumping subsidies into the market, inflating the supply. China dumped 231 billion dollars into EVs from 2009 to 2023. Over 500 electric car brands were created due to this injection. There is only are less than 100 left after China stopped the subsidies.
2- The Chinese EV are a superior product: which one of the 500 car companies are you referring to? outside ofthe top China brands (Geely, BYD), they all sorta suck.
China is doing is state sponsored “dumping”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) which artificially reduces prices to gain market share and has a negative effect on the industry. Every country in the world, not just the US, has an anti dumping policy, including China.
While we the consumer would love to spend pennies on the dollar for an electric cars, the effect is only temporary and when we start losing car companies due to this practice, prices always, ALWAYS, are higher after we lose competition.
Anti dumping policies is not hindering free market. The second you inject 231 billion dollars of government subsidies into an industry, is the second it no longer becomes a free market.
Yes, the USA has also has given subsidies. In total about 30 billion dollars. A drop in the bucket on the 231 billion the CCP has injected.
Would love to know where you’re getting your numbers from for the US and China. I surely hope it’s not just the AI response on top of Google. But that’s what it seems like. You’d literally have to write a whole research paper to get a good comparison because these are heavily consumer based subsidies within each country and China just has a much larger market it sells to heavily inflating the credit because of population. Also, you didn’t list a date range for your 30 Billion number.
You also have to account for state level subsidies and tax credits in the US in addition to Federal programs, grants, loans, etc. Would love to read a paper on this if you have a source.
But, even using your numbers 30 Billion (something I don’t think is accounting for State or EV infrastructure spending; but again, I’d like to see a source) is not a “drop in the bucket”. It’s 13% of what you listed for China over 14 years. Interestingly enough China also outselling the US in terms of market share. Comparing the subsidies of a country that owns the plurality of the market to one that does not is silly. Subsidies are going to increase WITH sales. China is selling significantly more cars. You’d have to compare the subsidies and adjust them based on units sold.
Doing some “Google AI response results” myself China is selling about 8x more EVs than the US (in 2023).
Hmmm. 8x30 = 240 billion. Weird. Again, I’m not taking my numbers seriously but I’m not taking your numbers seriously either because you didn’t sight a source, adjust for units sold, or give a date range for your US numbers.
But you’re just not comparing this correctly. You HAVE to adjust for units sold. Which you are not.
I live in Taiwan and we call those China made cars tofu cars. Their domestic cars are terrible. So many of them are going out of business because the the CCP lowered down the subsidies.
I would too, but you have to understand why the USA is blocking these cars from coming in. The cost of these cheap EVs are not based off of supply and demand. Its not even this cheap because of effectiveness or efficiencies. Its from the CCP subsidies. The CCP wants to dump on the competition in efforts to kill off anyone making a car, then start jacking up the price after they have market share.
That’s only half the truth though. The main reason why they’re so cheap is because they manufacture everything in the supply chain themselves. Everything. They have their own mines for their resources, they make their own batteries (which they’ve been doing for ages), they make their own electronics, they make their own software etc. They also have a completely different mindset. For them they are rolling electrical devices with some software. They don’t need the knowhow of the traditional car manufacturers. And then they bought the Audi designer along with his entire team to make the cars look good.
Edit: I’m talking about BYD. The rest is pretty much irrelevant.
Yes, there are efficiencies since all the tech is pretty close, but that pales in comparison to the sheer dollars injected into the industries. 231 billion dollars. Compare that to the 2nd closest investment into a car manufacturer which is the USA at 30 billion.
Each one of these new 500+ car manufacturers produced cars at a loss. Not because efficiencies. Because of subsidies. In some cases, not even sold at all. https://youtu.be/vplPmxVRcnk
Here in Taiwan, we get unfiltered China news.
My dude the US subsidizes the shit out of its electric car industry. When someone brings up “supply and demand” and just tries to pretend that the economy is exactly what they learned in their econ101 class.
They are doing the tarrifs on Chinese EVS because (1) they can’t compete on price and (2) the Chinese EVS are just a superior product.
You’re right on China though. They are just doing exactly what the US has done for decades. It’s just that the US doesn’t like having to actually compete with another country. So instead of actually making better and cheaper cars they instead just decide to tell the American people “nah, looks like you’re just being a shit Tesla”
The US loves to say “free market” but notice how they don’t allow a free market to force their industry to actually innovate and compete.
China is not “cheating” by subsidizing it’s industry. That’s literally just standard shit every government does. Thats just an excuse. America is subsidizing it’s EVs too. They just have worse EVs.
Trump is all about removing regulations and stated “for every new regulation, 10 must be revoked.” During his first term it was 2. He is moving the market that way, and boy oh boy is it going to suck for the consumer and small companies that want to compete.
So much to unpack here but I’ll do my best to address everything you’re saying here.
1- Chinese cars can’t compete in price: yes because China has been dumping subsidies into the market, inflating the supply. China dumped 231 billion dollars into EVs from 2009 to 2023. Over 500 electric car brands were created due to this injection. There is only are less than 100 left after China stopped the subsidies.
2- The Chinese EV are a superior product: which one of the 500 car companies are you referring to? outside ofthe top China brands (Geely, BYD), they all sorta suck.
China is doing is state sponsored “dumping”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) which artificially reduces prices to gain market share and has a negative effect on the industry. Every country in the world, not just the US, has an anti dumping policy, including China.
While we the consumer would love to spend pennies on the dollar for an electric cars, the effect is only temporary and when we start losing car companies due to this practice, prices always, ALWAYS, are higher after we lose competition.
Anti dumping policies is not hindering free market. The second you inject 231 billion dollars of government subsidies into an industry, is the second it no longer becomes a free market.
Yes, the USA has also has given subsidies. In total about 30 billion dollars. A drop in the bucket on the 231 billion the CCP has injected.
Would love to know where you’re getting your numbers from for the US and China. I surely hope it’s not just the AI response on top of Google. But that’s what it seems like. You’d literally have to write a whole research paper to get a good comparison because these are heavily consumer based subsidies within each country and China just has a much larger market it sells to heavily inflating the credit because of population. Also, you didn’t list a date range for your 30 Billion number.
You also have to account for state level subsidies and tax credits in the US in addition to Federal programs, grants, loans, etc. Would love to read a paper on this if you have a source.
But, even using your numbers 30 Billion (something I don’t think is accounting for State or EV infrastructure spending; but again, I’d like to see a source) is not a “drop in the bucket”. It’s 13% of what you listed for China over 14 years. Interestingly enough China also outselling the US in terms of market share. Comparing the subsidies of a country that owns the plurality of the market to one that does not is silly. Subsidies are going to increase WITH sales. China is selling significantly more cars. You’d have to compare the subsidies and adjust them based on units sold.
Doing some “Google AI response results” myself China is selling about 8x more EVs than the US (in 2023).
Hmmm. 8x30 = 240 billion. Weird. Again, I’m not taking my numbers seriously but I’m not taking your numbers seriously either because you didn’t sight a source, adjust for units sold, or give a date range for your US numbers.
But you’re just not comparing this correctly. You HAVE to adjust for units sold. Which you are not.
So capitalism.
We don’t want that evil capitalism here in the US. No sir.
State capitalism, but yes.
Yes, we get to prioritize USA industries vs China’s. I’m down for that.
“Our chineze vs their chinese.”
I’m also pretty sure their security / safety standards are pure ass. I barely trust our automakers, I sure as shit don’t trust the fucking CCP
I live in Taiwan and we call those China made cars tofu cars. Their domestic cars are terrible. So many of them are going out of business because the the CCP lowered down the subsidies.
I won’t be caught dead in one.