Article for context:https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/23870522/iphone-15-pro-max-thread-smartphones (Ik that I am talking about multiple companies when I refer to android companies but many singular companies make more innovations in the phone space compared to apple)
why is that? it’s not punching down when its a billion dollar company
edit: no coherent thoughts then? just mindless downvoting? well you’ve convinced me with that persuasive logic.
it’s genuinely concerning to see the microsoft stockholm syndrome in the wild, but on lemmy it’s honestly baffling.
I’ll bite, I down voted you because I think you’re missing the point of what the above commenters are talking about. It’s not about whether it’s punching down/up to criticize Microsoft.
It literally started with a question.
As yet noone has even answered that question.
Why is it worse? You’ve gone to the trouble to downvote, and reply, yet still haven’t answered the question.
Tbh most partisan camp debates in technology are pretty tiresome: ios vs android, playstation vs xbox. They all have pros and cons.
(Even linux and windows both have their pros and cons.)
That said, there’s a huge difference between comparing two commercial products both from competing companies vs a powerful open source tool, with almost limitless potential. Virtually ANY complaint you have about linux CAN be fixed by the public, even YOU if you put in the appropriate effort/resources.
The fact that you can freely boot into modern hardware with something offering that kind of power & freedom openly to the public is frankly incredible.
So tbh it’s pretty difficult to see why it is worse.
You’ve answered the question yourself. It’s just tiresome. It’s so exhausting to see time and time again. It’s not like it makes it not tiresome just because it’s punching up to criticize Microsoft. It’s a subjective thing, clearly some people don’t think it is tiresome so they continue to gripe about it.
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I don’t think this conversation has ever been about it being unreasonable for people to talk about, but no, I don’t find it unreasonable. Like I said, I just find the framing of it being about a power differential to be irrelevant for folks finding the topic to be annoying to read about.
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I was and am explaining to you why I down voted your comment. You asked someone who made a very subjective claim about their personal taste to justify their decision and part of your reasoning that they shouldn’t have that subjective opinion was that there’s a power differential between Linux and Microsoft. Just because that is true doesn’t invalidate their opinion about what is annoying to them. It’s like saying “how can you think red is the best color when it’s the color of blood?” It doesn’t matter.
Sometimes it just comes down to preference. I like Linux a lot for systems where I need the low overhead. But on my gaming PC, where I don’t have to worry as much about overhead, I prefer the convenience of not having to learn SSH commands or open source workarounds.
Microsoft is like the rich guy with the nice pool. Its looks nice. But then you learn they got rich by cutting corners and screwing over your friends. And are actively investing in making the public pool shit so they can grandstand their pool.
Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that
But I equally believe it is right and fair for us to have the freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing not to go up there.
Still though, this is conflating Windows and Microsoft. This conversation started about Linux users shitting on Windows, not Microsoft. I think Windows is decent at providing a relatively low effort experience while I also agree that Microsoft is guilty of all the typical practices of corporate greed.
I don’t buy Microsoft products anymore for that reason, but I still use them (if you catch my drift).
it’s hardly a conflation, this hostile modus operandi is baked into the windows product itself with malicious and intrusive features. i’m not sure if this is news to anyone, but those user-hostile features were added to windows by microsoft. and the best defense offered thus far for that is basically “most or all tech giants do it too” - yes, thankyou that’s exactly our point. the fact that shipping this kind of abusive software has been normalised is part of the problem too.
i agree in as much as not everything about windows is bad. and it can be useful sometimes out of necessity. though its worth remembering that necessity may often be the result of hostility on microsoft’s part, either past or present. so it’s not really possible to have an honest conversation about what windows is, without an awareness of how microsoft has maliciously managed our perception of desktop operating systems in general. happy to explain what i mean by this in more detail if anyone’s interested.
and also agreed, i’d never pay for it.
The logic just doesn’t follow. If we can’t distinguish between the evil of a corporation and the use of its products/services then everyone here is going to burn for using electronics made by children in another country.
This wasn’t my point at all. I’m simply stating that not everyone has the time and/or patience for Linux. I’m not a programmer. Most of the time that I do use Linux, it’s a struggle with a worthwhile outcome.
Damn, it’s almost like you either have to find a morally unassailable position or accept that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism and all that sentiment carries with it.
lol That’s a more succinct way to put it than what I could come up with, I like it
Be ye here warned: break that sucker out on libs and they recoil like demons from a cross, but it’s not a fetish in that regard and eventually you’ll find one who needs more exorcism than that meager phrase can provide.
As I mentioned, I’m not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.
What I am here to defend is our freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing to avoid it as much as possible.
Therefore, it’s unclear to me exactly which stance you are taking in reference to what i said.
Our position is there are at least two core topics for why we choose not go there. They are 1. issues with the product and 2. issues with the company.
With the pool analogy the corner cutting and then further elucidation regarding the escalation of user-hostile features, are both specific criticisms with the windows software itself. Not the company.
Regarding issues with the company, as stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice but rather listing the reasons why we make our choice as we do.
Therefore, it is unclear exactly which position you are taking which is contrary to this? Everyone will have a different moral line for the myriad of issues when dealing with evil companies and their products/services. Do you wish to tell others where they choose to draw their own lines for their own lives are incorrect? I doubt that’s really the stance you intended to make, so what do you mean, then?
Finally, I’m not sure how much of the history you’re aware of, but microsoft’s open hostility to linux devs & users is extensive and bitter. We have the case of a billion dollar company, actively trying to spoil & ruin the harmless pleasure many people take in a wonderful piece of technology.
This is almost entirely unlike any other “us vs them” technology debate. In nearly every other case, its wealthy corporation vs wealthy corporation with the users caught in the middle. In this case it is literally freedom of the people vs corporate profits. That freedom being actually incredibly important: its not only about the harmless enjoyment of the community. But also, considering the tech trajectory our society is on, very likely serving a critical role for actual human rights today and tomorrow.
As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable. But it would really be alot healthier if people take the time to appreciate the breadth of the problem, and perhaps better appreciate why we make our choices the way we do.
OR considering that may involve more effort than you have time for - fair enough - at least appreciate this is a topic some of the people who clearly have looked into it, might know some things about it you haven’t had time to learn yet.
No, and in fact it’s the other way around. This is exactly the underlying position used to attack Windows users. I don’t know how you can be so involved on the subject and not understand this.
It doesn’t matter if you’re personally guilty of this or not. Just look at the downvotes and verbal attack I received simply for stating that both operating systems have merit. This is the result of conflating Microsoft with Windows, that there’s an innate feeling of moral superiority in the denouncement of Windows users because of the harm done by its creator.
My point is that these two things are distinct and need to be distinguished. Criticize Windows all you want. Criticize Microsoft all you want. But if you start to criticize Windows for its association with Microsoft, then communication starts to break down and people start getting blamed for something they don’t even personally support because of a perceived moral high ground.
There is no moral high ground to be had over your every day user, because at the end of the day we’re all participants of capitalistic evil no matter where we choose to draw our personal lines. That’s what I meant.
In the first statement i made to you directly was the following:
From which I cannot fathom how you think I lack an appreciation that some people do blame others for such choices, or that I’m somehow having a conversation about those kinds of people…at all? Let alone their perceived moral high ground or lack thereof?
My entire thread has been about us having the freedom to express our reasons for avoiding it. If you’re not contesting the legitimacy of that freedom, them why are you continually attempting to invalidate my position, at all?
Tbh I’m entirely unconvinced by your claim that any participation in “capitalistic evil” immediately invalidates all subsequent discernment of shades of evil or the complex interactions thereof.
But frankly its entirely irrelevant to this thread, unless you believe it supports a position that we do not have the freedom to voice our own reasons for our own choices?
I’ll defend them. Like pushing for vegan diets, solar energy, and the end of single use plastics. It’s annoying, it’s not fun but in the long run it’s to make the world better for average people.
The ship has sailed there. Microsoft aren’t going anywhere soon and in the long run they will continue to win.
There are plenty of good causes which I hypocritically agree with and don’t put into practise, eating meat is bad for me and the planet but I’ll still enjoy a steak without feeling like a villain believe it or not.
Blaming someone for choosing Microsoft is a dick move, Linux doesn’t work for everyone (I.e. non tech people) so what should they (myself included) be doing instead in your opinion?
The whole system needs to fail before a company like Microsoft loses, if that happens great. But until then me want play new games, me not know Linux tech, me use bad guy company to enjoy me time. Most importantly, me don’t feel bad for doing it.
Seriously though, I pick my battles and try to not be evil while doing so. Microsoft selling an extra copy of windows once every 10 or 15 years won’t turn them into our all powerful overlords and it’s the easiest way for me to enjoy my free time, and on balance I’m fine with that.
Im mixed because on one hand, you dont want a “crazy lady in the attic”. (we feed her and don’t talk about her) to fix that you must be intolerant to the intolerant. (in this case, you want to be against intolerance for people who are running windows) Its uncomfortable because it feels like your attacking yourself.
Your idea of making the world a better place is bullying people into submission? Something doesn’t quite add up there. 🤔
You know that on Windows you then don’t have ssh in the first place? Its like deinstalling ssh on Linux… It would be the same. It don’t understand your point with ssh.
My lack of understanding of your sentence is exactly why I’ll never bother with Linux. It may be amazing and triple my PCs speed but I simply don’t have time (or motivation) to learn the vocabulary, let alone how things actually work.
Windows may be worse than Linux, but I can install it and be playing any game I want within a few hours with no research. I just cba with anything that I have to think about for more than 2seconds when I want to use my PC, it exists for me to kill time (and occasionally various admin tasks) and I don’t have any need to complicate life further by using Linux and having to keep up with the latest ssh or whatever you’re talking about.
honestly, do what makes you happy. I may eat and breath Linux but its my choice. yours is valid too. I disassociate from anyone who attack people and not their OS’s issues. there are people who just want to make hardware and software better, (FSF is hard to advocate for but I generally do), the losers who verbally harass people for not using Linux are culturally destructive (especially to Linux).
Agree with everything you’ve written. Linux users are frequently the worst thing about it, I’m sure lots are reasonable but seeing (the vocal part of) the community really puts me off becoming a part of it.
Nice to see that my experience isn’t reflective of all users though, thanks mate :)
I dare to bet that through this single line of comments, you have converted more people to Linux than any of those Linux zealots have done in their lifetime.
Actually… I know you have no knowledge. But to explain to you how nonsese it is.
On Linux you have a greater experience of plug and play. You just open the store app and install any application you want. Done. Not sure why you need to learn any vocabulary and not sure why you think you need that after I said that you don’t need it. Its all GUI. Games just install and work. You only need to have Steam or Lutris. Faster to install Games than on Windows tbh.
On Windows you need to search the whole web through fake ads and non official fake apps to get what you want. At worse, malware is installed within seconds.
Windows ships with SSH.
No, only Windowd 10 Pro afaik. But maybe I am indeed wrong
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/terminal/tutorials/ssh
You may need to enable it before using it, depending on the version you originally installed. They’ve even had a built-in SSH server since W10 build 1809.
Seems like times are changing
You’re in the wrong part of the internet, bud.
What an unsurprising outcome, it’s almost like this is exactly the kind of unwarranted hostility the original comment alluded to. The most ironic part is I use Linux too.
I have just as much right to be here and to say my piece as you do.
You’re at +23 lol
40ups and 16downs
Tbh I’m a bit disappointed, the influx of new users is great. It’s great people are leaving closedsource places and enjoying free and opensource places like lemmy.
Its good seeing new faces and making new friends.
And I get they’ll inevitably bring some of that default “closed is better than open” mindset with them.
Its just disappointing when given the opportunity to learn a bit more about the world of open freedom, instead of considering maybe there might be something new they could learn and potentially enjoy.
Instead they try to drown us out with mindless and (mostly) unsubstantiated downvotes.
And it often turns out to be people who inevitably declare they don’t know how to use linux or couldn’t get it working properly.
So WHY is it when someone admits they don’t really understand the topic, do they think they’re the right person to vote on the legitimacy of the claims being made???
Why are yoy replying me
just venting. lol