I admit that I have made 3 mistakes. 1. I tried(still do) to explain communism to communist, 2. above post is from the top of my head and 3. we will not change our minds, because 1.
“What’s utopian is painting a picture of the minutia of what communist society will look like, that’s what you’re doing now and what every Marxist repudiates” I smell butthurt. If you think that stateless(without any autority) and utopian society is possible today or in future for human species(we know today. Power-hungry, greedy, selfish and materialistic, which then turns into power-hungry rulers that always use communist ideology for their gain. Always dictatorship. Always tyranny.) then there are the doors and go say this fairy tale to some idiot.
No law enforcement? I cannot find this now, but police is literally tool of state. It would have different form in truly communist society and that society would basically treat itself as one big family so I am lazy to think how this would work at all.
Factories and shops? You do realize that you would still work under real communism, right? Communist regime here prided itself at work. Everyone had to work. We even had anti-parasitic laws where police would start to look for you, if you missed the job for 3 days. It might have different form (so not factory or shop), but that is how it would roll. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. You work and then you take what you need. Like one big family. Does not work. Even family has authoritative figure that “corrects” your needs. Also, common ownership in family only works, because you know them. I assume we are both workers and I give exactly zero shit, if you are alive or not, which means that I will never share property with you, because I have no reason to do so.
“You’ve made up your own image of communism in your mind and have decided that’s what everybody else thinks, and use your own utopia to discredit scientific socialists” COPE and ideological language. “scientific socialists” sounds like another cope. Let me guess. Bogus science, bogus theory, bogus future predictions.
Why would someone living under communism have to educate themselves on communist ideals? People living under capitalism don’t educate themselves on capitalist ideals, they take it completely for granted because that’s the status quo
First, there are no capitalist ideals. Capitalism does not intend to go somewhere. Capitalism just wants to consume and use everything around in the most efficient way(when regulated!!!). In fact, if there ever is some higher society, my bet is that capitalism will get us there, which means that I do not have to do anything(especially worship ideology that killed millions), because we already make ground breaking discoveries in biology(?) every year + advancement of AI. I think that no amount of “evil elite”(populism by the way) would ever be able to stop the inevitable progress.
Education was tightly controlled by communists here. After coup in 1948, they basically seized the whole educational apparatus. Especially colleges that were then meant to promote communist ideology. Education is necessary for communist society to run. I am lazy and I am wasting my time on you. I think I already mentioned it above. Human error of communist ideology. You need opposite of what people currently are. Educated, caring, altruistic, etc. Utopia. Then again, under communist regimes in our reality, communists really only used education to control people. Historical revisionism of communists is notorious.
I smell butthurt. If you think that stateless(without any autority) and utopian society is possible today or in future for human species(we know today. Power-hungry, greedy, selfish and materialistic, which then turns into power-hungry rulers that always use communist ideology for their gain. Always dictatorship. Always tyranny.) then there are the doors and go say this fairy tale to some idiot.
Incredible how you call me butthurt but don’t substantiate any of your claims whatsoever, just slinging insults as an argument. My what mechanism would communism always lead to tyranny? What mechanism makes “greedy selfish and materialistic” people destroy socialism from within? Do you think that Marx’s ideology, a strictly and explicitly materialist one itself, wouldn’t consider people are materialistic?
No law enforcement? I cannot find this now, but police is literally tool of state. It would have different form in truly communist society and that society would basically treat itself as one big family so I am lazy to think how this would work at all.
Police aren’t the only form of law enforcement that could ever exist. if you’re too “lazy” to think outside the box, whatever, but don’t blame communists for doing it.
Factories and shops? You do realize that you would still work under real communism, right? Communist regime here prided itself at work. Everyone had to work. We even had anti-parasitic laws where police would start to look for you, if you missed the job for 3 days. It might have different form (so not factory or shop), but that is how it would roll. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. You work and then you take what you need. Like one big family. Does not work. Even family has authoritative figure that “corrects” your needs. Also, common ownership in family only works, because you know them.
Yes I’m aware you would still work under communism, but you are once again using the conditions of capitalist production and just placing them in the communist mode of production assuming they wouldn’t be fundamentally altered by the substantively different economic conditions. You never lived under communism, at best you lived under socialism, and most of your peers statistically prefer it to capitalism.
I assume we are both workers and I give exactly zero shit, if you are alive or not, which means that I will never share property with you, because I have no reason to do so.
Communism is not an empathy-driven system, so your whole line about not caring about me is pretty pointless. What property do you even have to share? Are you going to resort to the “toothbrush” argument?
COPE and ideological language. “scientific socialists” sounds like another cope. Let me guess. Bogus science, bogus theory, bogus future predictions.
Scientific socialism was a term coined by Engels to describe marxism, is this your first time hearing it? You list out a bunch of “bogus” but can’t seem to substantiate those claims. Maybe if you could you wouldn’t have to “guess” that they’re bogus?
First, there are no capitalist ideals
LMAO, patently false. Capitalism is its own ideology too with its own theory and proponents and ideals.
Education was tightly controlled by communists here. After coup in 1948, they basically seized the whole educational apparatus. Especially colleges that were then meant to promote communist ideology. Education is necessary for communist society to run.
Once again you prove your lack of understanding of Marxism by not understanding the distinction between communism and socialism.
I think I already mentioned it above. Human error of communist ideology. You need opposite of what people currently are. Educated, caring, altruistic, etc. Utopia.
You have still failed to explain how exactly people not being perfect undermines socialism. It seems like you think you can hide your lack of substance behind snarky self-righteousness but you’re not making any actual criticism besides venting your obvious animosity towards socialists
This will my last response I hope. We disagree.
Point 1 Communist ideology always historically led to totalitarianism. It happened here. It happened everywhere else and I think there is nothing to fix about it. If you disagree on this point then I have nothing to say. There are so many examples. It is also complex so I will not expand much. Moving power vacuums from elite into state. Centralisation of power will inevitably lead to someone seizing it.
2)Yes, different law enforcement. No clue how it work in practice. Communists themselves probably do not know either.
3)Holy shit. I do not care about most, but Czechia does not want Socialism. This is tankie opinion push. We recently got rid of successor to the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia. Too late and no one except truly old and connected wants it back. We have been trying to shrug off this culture and corruption for the last 30 years. No thanks.
4) I disagree.
5)I will ignore this, because it is too much waste of time. Science did not properly even exist at the time.EDIT: I meant that terminology was different. Wikipedia. Communist idiot is trying to make me look like idiot. Poor choice of words. Science absolutely existed, but when I quickly checked wiki, it was written there that those words had slightly different meaning. I was in a hurry and I have no clue how that could happen in 19th century.
6) Capitalism has ideals? Turn into one monopol or something? Nothing else comes mind. Tldr?
7)I think I never said socialism in entire post. I was trying to get closer on how real communism should more or less look like. What we had here was socialism. You will say some bullshit about it no being real socialism, but I think I waste time.
8) YOU. PUT. ALL. POWER. INTO. A. STATE. When that happens, people in power take advantage of it. What happens is the only logical conclusion. It happened every single time. What is there to not understand? Do not tell me that we want back this monstrous system. Capitalism is much better for us.
tldr “I don’t care about your opinion because my opinion is right and I don’t have to back it up”
It’s insane how dismissive you manage to be while also not substantiating any of your claims in any meaningful way aside from vaguely gesturing at communism itself or saying that it’s not worth talking about
you keep saying “communists don’t know this or that about communism” and that you’re trying to discover what “communism might look like” when I told you in my first comment that trying to predict the minutia of communism is utopian
science didn’t exist at the time … Wikipedia says that it had different terminology. Where mistake? EDIT: Poor choice of words. I was in hurry to end this.
I will summarize what I wrote. Socialism puts all power into state->totalitarianism. No thanks.
Czechia truly does not want Socialism. We have here communist disgraces, but they are really just pro-Russia. Nothing communist about them. Trying to predict details of communism is… utopia? Am I translating this right? How are even supposed to build communism when we currently cannot predict it?
EDIT: It is also funny how you took that science out of context.
I’m honestly still not sure what you mean by science didn’t exist at the time or what context you might be referring to
You aren’t supposed to build communism, we are supposed to build socialism, only when generations are reared in the social conditions of the socialist mode of production, and the international conditions allow, and the productive capacity allows, can the transition from socialism to communism take place.
Basically we are too far off from communism to build it directly and to predict the fine details of what it may look like, we need to build socialism first
I admit that I have made 3 mistakes. 1. I tried(still do) to explain communism to communist, 2. above post is from the top of my head and 3. we will not change our minds, because 1.
“What’s utopian is painting a picture of the minutia of what communist society will look like, that’s what you’re doing now and what every Marxist repudiates” I smell butthurt. If you think that stateless(without any autority) and utopian society is possible today or in future for human species(we know today. Power-hungry, greedy, selfish and materialistic, which then turns into power-hungry rulers that always use communist ideology for their gain. Always dictatorship. Always tyranny.) then there are the doors and go say this fairy tale to some idiot.
No law enforcement? I cannot find this now, but police is literally tool of state. It would have different form in truly communist society and that society would basically treat itself as one big family so I am lazy to think how this would work at all.
Factories and shops? You do realize that you would still work under real communism, right? Communist regime here prided itself at work. Everyone had to work. We even had anti-parasitic laws where police would start to look for you, if you missed the job for 3 days. It might have different form (so not factory or shop), but that is how it would roll. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. You work and then you take what you need. Like one big family. Does not work. Even family has authoritative figure that “corrects” your needs. Also, common ownership in family only works, because you know them. I assume we are both workers and I give exactly zero shit, if you are alive or not, which means that I will never share property with you, because I have no reason to do so.
“You’ve made up your own image of communism in your mind and have decided that’s what everybody else thinks, and use your own utopia to discredit scientific socialists” COPE and ideological language. “scientific socialists” sounds like another cope. Let me guess. Bogus science, bogus theory, bogus future predictions.
Why would someone living under communism have to educate themselves on communist ideals? People living under capitalism don’t educate themselves on capitalist ideals, they take it completely for granted because that’s the status quo
First, there are no capitalist ideals. Capitalism does not intend to go somewhere. Capitalism just wants to consume and use everything around in the most efficient way(when regulated!!!). In fact, if there ever is some higher society, my bet is that capitalism will get us there, which means that I do not have to do anything(especially worship ideology that killed millions), because we already make ground breaking discoveries in biology(?) every year + advancement of AI. I think that no amount of “evil elite”(populism by the way) would ever be able to stop the inevitable progress.
Education was tightly controlled by communists here. After coup in 1948, they basically seized the whole educational apparatus. Especially colleges that were then meant to promote communist ideology. Education is necessary for communist society to run. I am lazy and I am wasting my time on you. I think I already mentioned it above. Human error of communist ideology. You need opposite of what people currently are. Educated, caring, altruistic, etc. Utopia. Then again, under communist regimes in our reality, communists really only used education to control people. Historical revisionism of communists is notorious.
Incredible how you call me butthurt but don’t substantiate any of your claims whatsoever, just slinging insults as an argument. My what mechanism would communism always lead to tyranny? What mechanism makes “greedy selfish and materialistic” people destroy socialism from within? Do you think that Marx’s ideology, a strictly and explicitly materialist one itself, wouldn’t consider people are materialistic?
Police aren’t the only form of law enforcement that could ever exist. if you’re too “lazy” to think outside the box, whatever, but don’t blame communists for doing it.
Yes I’m aware you would still work under communism, but you are once again using the conditions of capitalist production and just placing them in the communist mode of production assuming they wouldn’t be fundamentally altered by the substantively different economic conditions. You never lived under communism, at best you lived under socialism, and most of your peers statistically prefer it to capitalism.
Communism is not an empathy-driven system, so your whole line about not caring about me is pretty pointless. What property do you even have to share? Are you going to resort to the “toothbrush” argument?
Scientific socialism was a term coined by Engels to describe marxism, is this your first time hearing it? You list out a bunch of “bogus” but can’t seem to substantiate those claims. Maybe if you could you wouldn’t have to “guess” that they’re bogus?
LMAO, patently false. Capitalism is its own ideology too with its own theory and proponents and ideals.
Once again you prove your lack of understanding of Marxism by not understanding the distinction between communism and socialism.
You have still failed to explain how exactly people not being perfect undermines socialism. It seems like you think you can hide your lack of substance behind snarky self-righteousness but you’re not making any actual criticism besides venting your obvious animosity towards socialists
This will my last response I hope. We disagree. Point 1 Communist ideology always historically led to totalitarianism. It happened here. It happened everywhere else and I think there is nothing to fix about it. If you disagree on this point then I have nothing to say. There are so many examples. It is also complex so I will not expand much. Moving power vacuums from elite into state. Centralisation of power will inevitably lead to someone seizing it. 2)Yes, different law enforcement. No clue how it work in practice. Communists themselves probably do not know either. 3)Holy shit. I do not care about most, but Czechia does not want Socialism. This is tankie opinion push. We recently got rid of successor to the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia. Too late and no one except truly old and connected wants it back. We have been trying to shrug off this culture and corruption for the last 30 years. No thanks. 4) I disagree. 5)I will ignore this, because it is too much waste of time. Science did not properly even exist at the time.EDIT: I meant that terminology was different. Wikipedia. Communist idiot is trying to make me look like idiot. Poor choice of words. Science absolutely existed, but when I quickly checked wiki, it was written there that those words had slightly different meaning. I was in a hurry and I have no clue how that could happen in 19th century. 6) Capitalism has ideals? Turn into one monopol or something? Nothing else comes mind. Tldr? 7)I think I never said socialism in entire post. I was trying to get closer on how real communism should more or less look like. What we had here was socialism. You will say some bullshit about it no being real socialism, but I think I waste time. 8) YOU. PUT. ALL. POWER. INTO. A. STATE. When that happens, people in power take advantage of it. What happens is the only logical conclusion. It happened every single time. What is there to not understand? Do not tell me that we want back this monstrous system. Capitalism is much better for us.
tldr “I don’t care about your opinion because my opinion is right and I don’t have to back it up”
It’s insane how dismissive you manage to be while also not substantiating any of your claims in any meaningful way aside from vaguely gesturing at communism itself or saying that it’s not worth talking about
you keep saying “communists don’t know this or that about communism” and that you’re trying to discover what “communism might look like” when I told you in my first comment that trying to predict the minutia of communism is utopian
LMAO what???
science didn’t exist at the time … Wikipedia says that it had different terminology. Where mistake? EDIT: Poor choice of words. I was in hurry to end this. I will summarize what I wrote. Socialism puts all power into state->totalitarianism. No thanks. Czechia truly does not want Socialism. We have here communist disgraces, but they are really just pro-Russia. Nothing communist about them. Trying to predict details of communism is… utopia? Am I translating this right? How are even supposed to build communism when we currently cannot predict it? EDIT: It is also funny how you took that science out of context.
I’m honestly still not sure what you mean by science didn’t exist at the time or what context you might be referring to
You aren’t supposed to build communism, we are supposed to build socialism, only when generations are reared in the social conditions of the socialist mode of production, and the international conditions allow, and the productive capacity allows, can the transition from socialism to communism take place.
Basically we are too far off from communism to build it directly and to predict the fine details of what it may look like, we need to build socialism first