Arch, Fedora, Debian/Ubuntu all use systemd. SteamOS/CachyOS are based off Arch. Bazzite is Fedora-based.
If you use Linux for gaming, you are not going to have a good time avoiding systemd. It’s certainly true that some distributions don’t use it, but their market share is limited.
It seems dismissive to ignore the trends and investment in the ecosystem going towards systemd based distributions.
Your options are limited significantly if you want to avoid it, but yes, there are options. I use a steam deck primarily and while I can re install the OS, it’s a significant amount of fiddling for a worse experience.
My issue with systemd is not that it’s ‘hard to use’ or anything. My issue is that it’s getting harder to avoid as time goes on.
Yeah that’s true. On the desktop since i was already using more DIY-type distros it’s not that difficult to avoid it, but with a more specialized usecase like the steam deck it’s hard to find something that mimicks the SteamOS experience without using systemd, or at least there’s not an OOTB experience distro for that as far as i know. I’m still using the stock SteamOS on my deck for that reason, it doesn’t feel worth it to replace, especially since i only use mine to game and don’t tinker with it like my desktop.
As previously mentioned, I do not have a dog in this fight. I do not personally care if my distros has it or doesn’t have it. A lot of distros use systemd because they like it. If you don’t like systemd, you can use something else. If systemd starts to get really bad for some reason, less people will use it. That is the circle of life, and why open source works as a self correcting economy.
Also, like… I do prefer to be up to date for gaming & optimizations from gaming focused distros. But if I am being honest, the single digit percent increases are not that noticeable vs something like MX Linux.
I understand that you personally are fine with it, but this is apparently a trigger for me, so please accept my apology in advance for offering commentary.
if you don’t like it, you can use something else:
This is only really true for desktop PC hobbyists. SteamOS is responsible for a huge spike of Linux usage recently and that is Systemd-only. it’s true that you can install something else but it’ll be a significantly worse user experience. This is the case for basically any handheld Linux device, and all corporate investment is going to systemd based distros.
if systemd starts to get bad, less people will use it:
The alternatives are less polished and switching distros is a relatively costly proposition if you are not a hobbyist (in terms of opportunity cost and time spent without a functional computer). Handheld devices such as the steam deck are much less flexible as well.
I appreciate the apology in advance, but it is not necessary. I am happy to have a civilized conversation like we are having, even if we disagree.
To my knowledge, the arguments against systemd boil down to:
They recently added an option to ask for age verification, which distros do not have to use, and I believe they walked it back already.
It goes against the values of Linux to have a singular project be responsible for many functions instead of doing one small thing well.
It is large-ish for what it is, and could be more efficient with resources.
Now I’m not here to tell you to care or not to care, that’s your own prerogative. But think about the type of people who WOULD care, given the context? Is it gamers who bought a Steam Deck off the shelf and may not even know what Linux is? Or is it a specific subset of Linux enthusiasts who are a specific subset of PC enthusiasts who are a specific subset of people who use Linux machines? I think we can both agree it is the latter 99.9% of the time.
To your second point, you have more or less invalidated the 3rd possibility of not liking systemd. It simply works better in most cases. Alternatives are not that much worse or anything, that’s just what it is right now. COULD it potentially be better if it was the way we imagined it in our head? Maybe, but then just make your own version if you know how to make it better. But to really ANSWER your argument, by “less people will use it”, I mostly mean distro devs. It got forked immediately after the slightest hint of age verification. If it becomes an actual problem, you can bet it will swiftly be replaced by most distros, and non-tech people will not even realize it happened. Especially if that subset of Linux enthusiasts who don’t like it start jumping ship for others distros that don’t have it. Things change allll the time in Linux. Nothing is irreplaceable or unforkable.
Yeah I meant the effort required to change a already running distro to use something other than systemd seems too daunting. ofc if you have the luxury to reinstall a fresh distro its very easy
I’ve gotta say, I didn’t expect this argument on a Linux enthusiast sub in the Fediverse. A few hours to restore backup files and configuration files is not a luxury lol. I mean, I get really busy sometimes and don’t even have a few hours to spare to re-image, but damn. I find time eventually. You probably have a backup system in place already too. If you care enough to complain, you care enough to fix the problem.
I am baffled by the “daunted” comment. I thought about commenting “skill issue”, but this just isnt even the case here. You’re already past that. You moved off Windows or macOS, you probably tried several distros before landing on one. I can’t imagine the venn diagram of people who care about systemd and the people who are afraid to try a new distros are anything but two separate circles. And I can assure you non-systemd distros are not really any different in practice. I think I ran into one niche app that wouldn’t work without systemd on antiX. Otherwise, same old same ole.
Honestly this is just a me thing with my brain. I have VERY high PC setup inertia. If my system’s running, I’ll keep it that way. And if there’s a problem (like my current Linux being actually fucked), first reflex is to get a panic attack.
Was probably wrong of me to generalize my inertia here especially in the Linux community so I’ll apologize for that.
Dang, everyone is so much nicer in the Fediverse. Now I feel like an asshole for poking fun at you a little bit. My bad. What error are you getting on boot BTW?
I do as well and honestly after looking into the effort required to switch I’m not gonna. Altho my Linux doesn’t boot rn soooo… xD
The effort required is to install a distro without it. That’s it. Some without it are even quite popular, like MX Linux.
Clarification: I don’t care either way about systemd, just saying, it requires no effort to avoid.
Arch, Fedora, Debian/Ubuntu all use systemd. SteamOS/CachyOS are based off Arch. Bazzite is Fedora-based.
If you use Linux for gaming, you are not going to have a good time avoiding systemd. It’s certainly true that some distributions don’t use it, but their market share is limited.
It seems dismissive to ignore the trends and investment in the ecosystem going towards systemd based distributions.
Idk, i mean there’s Artix. I’ve used Void for like 2 years and gaming was fine.
Your options are limited significantly if you want to avoid it, but yes, there are options. I use a steam deck primarily and while I can re install the OS, it’s a significant amount of fiddling for a worse experience.
My issue with systemd is not that it’s ‘hard to use’ or anything. My issue is that it’s getting harder to avoid as time goes on.
Yeah that’s true. On the desktop since i was already using more DIY-type distros it’s not that difficult to avoid it, but with a more specialized usecase like the steam deck it’s hard to find something that mimicks the SteamOS experience without using systemd, or at least there’s not an OOTB experience distro for that as far as i know. I’m still using the stock SteamOS on my deck for that reason, it doesn’t feel worth it to replace, especially since i only use mine to game and don’t tinker with it like my desktop.
As previously mentioned, I do not have a dog in this fight. I do not personally care if my distros has it or doesn’t have it. A lot of distros use systemd because they like it. If you don’t like systemd, you can use something else. If systemd starts to get really bad for some reason, less people will use it. That is the circle of life, and why open source works as a self correcting economy.
Also, like… I do prefer to be up to date for gaming & optimizations from gaming focused distros. But if I am being honest, the single digit percent increases are not that noticeable vs something like MX Linux.
I understand that you personally are fine with it, but this is apparently a trigger for me, so please accept my apology in advance for offering commentary.
This is only really true for desktop PC hobbyists. SteamOS is responsible for a huge spike of Linux usage recently and that is Systemd-only. it’s true that you can install something else but it’ll be a significantly worse user experience. This is the case for basically any handheld Linux device, and all corporate investment is going to systemd based distros.
The alternatives are less polished and switching distros is a relatively costly proposition if you are not a hobbyist (in terms of opportunity cost and time spent without a functional computer). Handheld devices such as the steam deck are much less flexible as well.
I appreciate the apology in advance, but it is not necessary. I am happy to have a civilized conversation like we are having, even if we disagree.
To my knowledge, the arguments against systemd boil down to:
Now I’m not here to tell you to care or not to care, that’s your own prerogative. But think about the type of people who WOULD care, given the context? Is it gamers who bought a Steam Deck off the shelf and may not even know what Linux is? Or is it a specific subset of Linux enthusiasts who are a specific subset of PC enthusiasts who are a specific subset of people who use Linux machines? I think we can both agree it is the latter 99.9% of the time.
To your second point, you have more or less invalidated the 3rd possibility of not liking systemd. It simply works better in most cases. Alternatives are not that much worse or anything, that’s just what it is right now. COULD it potentially be better if it was the way we imagined it in our head? Maybe, but then just make your own version if you know how to make it better. But to really ANSWER your argument, by “less people will use it”, I mostly mean distro devs. It got forked immediately after the slightest hint of age verification. If it becomes an actual problem, you can bet it will swiftly be replaced by most distros, and non-tech people will not even realize it happened. Especially if that subset of Linux enthusiasts who don’t like it start jumping ship for others distros that don’t have it. Things change allll the time in Linux. Nothing is irreplaceable or unforkable.
Yeah I meant the effort required to change a already running distro to use something other than systemd seems too daunting. ofc if you have the luxury to reinstall a fresh distro its very easy
I’ve gotta say, I didn’t expect this argument on a Linux enthusiast sub in the Fediverse. A few hours to restore backup files and configuration files is not a luxury lol. I mean, I get really busy sometimes and don’t even have a few hours to spare to re-image, but damn. I find time eventually. You probably have a backup system in place already too. If you care enough to complain, you care enough to fix the problem.
I am baffled by the “daunted” comment. I thought about commenting “skill issue”, but this just isnt even the case here. You’re already past that. You moved off Windows or macOS, you probably tried several distros before landing on one. I can’t imagine the venn diagram of people who care about systemd and the people who are afraid to try a new distros are anything but two separate circles. And I can assure you non-systemd distros are not really any different in practice. I think I ran into one niche app that wouldn’t work without systemd on antiX. Otherwise, same old same ole.
Honestly this is just a me thing with my brain. I have VERY high PC setup inertia. If my system’s running, I’ll keep it that way. And if there’s a problem (like my current Linux being actually fucked), first reflex is to get a panic attack.
Was probably wrong of me to generalize my inertia here especially in the Linux community so I’ll apologize for that.
Dang, everyone is so much nicer in the Fediverse. Now I feel like an asshole for poking fun at you a little bit. My bad. What error are you getting on boot BTW?