Kinda hard to have an equal discussion when being a woman entails being sexually harassed and occasionally assaulted by a bunch of men, mostly ones you barely know or don’t know at all, on a regular basis before you even hit puberty. Your “sex war” is more like a sex genocide with the effects biting the whole male demographic in the ass, even the ones who didn’t cause it.
It’s also hard when most of the men that participate in this discussion (despite often not wanting to admit it at first) subconsciously think that women should listen to their venting 5 seconds after meeting them and be in a relationship with them and hug them and bang them and stuff. Seriously, interacting with guys just feels like gambling, with most of them forming some sort of unhealthy obsession with you and taking your kindness as a sign of weakness or inability to see their red flags; to a lot of guys, interaction with them is basically a green light to move on you. It sometimes feels like life is a “don’t unintentionally upset or engage with a random man too much or else he might find your phone number on the dark web and send you texts threatening to rape, torture, and murder you”. We live in a society where it’s relatively common for high school girls to have a guy classmate they occasionally talk to tell/text them that they wanna rape her, just unfiltered and out there because she decided to have a conversation.
Their problems are caused by patriarchy too, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to subject myself to sexism from them. They, whether they realize it or not, feel like they deserve what they want from a woman, the unfairness of women not wanting them makes them frustrated and they see gender equality as a means to an end, they see it as a way to have women finally love them.
It’s not so much of “women and men are equally fucking up and need to make up” as it is “women are extremely scared by men, and negotiating with the likely emotionally unstable potentially violent people with nothing to lose who probably thought about you and them dating immediately after seeing you never seems like the good option”. It’s like encouraging kids to interact with people who they think are violent and might shoot up a school in order to convince them not to shoot up the school… Even talking to someone out of pity is endangering yourself.
Most guys want to get in your pants or eventually get to that point, whether you’re apathetic to them or nice to them or mean to them. How am I supposed to talk to guys about sexism when usually their main concern is the lack of action with women and my main concern is interacting with men is inherently extremely risky and I fear I’m about to get raped or murdered when a man raises his voice at me?
It has to be at least 95% of straight men who are the danger women have to do conversational twister with to be relatively safe and comfortable around, and the remaining portion of men usually take an “insult” about the majority of men as an “insult” to them.
Men and women are both negatively affected by our sexist system but the playing field is not level. The solution is getting a majority of men to realize exactly what women deal with from men, and getting them to actively work against their subconscious sexism to promote a safer environment for women and remove the high risk of interacting with men, including by halting the rampant objectification of women and their bodies, so women and men can actually be humans with each other for real. The widespread outrage things like the bear meme gets show that this probably isn’t going to work out any time soon. Men usually immediately think of it as a challenge to “prove” that women are worse by saying a lot of them are bitchy and hard to read and gold diggers or something, rather than a way to understand why women can’t feel safe around men the same way they can around women. But instead men think of it as how women feel about any single man, including them.
At least there are communities like [email protected] that are on the right path though. Sigh.
Kinda hard to have an equal discussion when being a woman entails being sexually harassed and occasionally assaulted by a bunch of men, mostly ones you barely know or don’t know at all, on a regular basis before you even hit puberty.
genuine question, how do you expect it to get any better if you aren’t being civil? Like yeah theoretically if someone punches you or something, it’d feel good, and probably be legal to bash them over the head with a tire iron, but let’s be honest, the only thing that’s gonna do is end up with one of you dead. Which might work on the scale of war.
But when we’re talking about something on the scale of, literally half of society (or all of it), i don’t see how you expect that to work. I also don’t expect it to work, don’t get me wrong, i love having in depth conversations about problems, it’s fun. There’s an unspoken rule that goes a little something like “play hard, fight hard”
Their problems are caused by patriarchy too, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to subject myself to sexism from them. They, whether they realize it or not, feel like they deserve what they want from a woman, the unfairness of women not wanting them makes them frustrated and they see gender equality as a means to an end, they see it as a way to have women finally love them.
it’s definitely interesting i’ve talked to a number of people, being an aro/ace myself it’s really weird talking to horny people. I can safely say, being told by a friend of yours that “they would like to rape you” is definitely one of the experiences of all time. My response to that is and will always be “i will kill you” because seriously what the fuck.
I get the feeling that people are probably over pathologizing it, because it’s hard to define, understand, and conceptualize why another person would ever fucking say that. I dont think it’s explicitly due to negligence, i think it’s a little more nuanced. Though i still think the defining factor here would be aggression, as that’s usually what follows intent.
It’s not so much of “women and men are equally fucking up and need to make up” as it is “women are extremely scared by men, and negotiating with the likely emotionally unstable potentially violent people with nothing to lose who probably thought about you and them dating immediately after seeing you never seems like the good option”. It’s like encouraging kids to interact with people who they think are violent and might shoot up a school in order to convince them not to shoot up the school… Even talking to someone out of pity is endangering yourself.
i think you might be misunderstanding the point here, i think the intent is specifically that women don’t know how to effectively communicate this problem, generally because violence scary. And the fact that men generally aren’t aware of it, because they aren’t self conscious to that degree, or they simply don’t have that level of real world experience surrounding them. It’s hard to ask questions you don’t know how to ask after all. I think some men don’t think/realize that it’s a problem, and since nobody seems to be informing them otherwise. Continue thinking that. I think there are an extreme minority that think otherwise, or at least i like to that think that way. Because otherwise i would expect a shit ton more crime be going on than there seems to be right now. I think for them, they’re probably more actively involved in these spaces, than other people are (on account of the hateful rhetoric) and as a result outweigh the better people, significantly. By a few factors i think.
There’s also the question of whether some of these are just literal bots now? Because that might be a thing.
Most guys want to get in your pants or eventually get to that point, whether you’re apathetic to them or nice to them or mean to them. How am I supposed to talk to guys about sexism when usually their main concern is the lack of action with women and my main concern is interacting with men is inherently extremely risky and I fear I’m about to get raped or murdered when a man raises his voice at me?
i think this part calls back to the previous part i mentioned about the original comment here, i don’t think anybody understands what’s happening, and i don’t think anybody understands what to do about it either. Also i feel like this over sexualizes men? Than again i’m also aro/ace so like, good luck making me horny (maybe i just don’t fucking understand it lol). In certain contexts i could see this being very true. On dating apps for example. At a bar for another one. Generally, just out in society. I don’t think that’s really the case. Because if most men are thinking about sex constantly that’s called porn addiction. That’s bad.
my point ultimately, is that as a male, or at least a male presenting individual, it’s impossible for me to be capable of understanding the quintessential experience of “being a woman” likewise, as a female, it’s also impossible to understand the quintessential experience of “being a man” and when you’re trying to speak across the divide, like a language barrier, it’s really difficult to effectively make a point, that either side can understand, that communicates problems between the two. Direct communication is probably the best solution, given that it requires the least amount of effort to think about. The problem here is how do we most effectively communicate the problem directly. There are almost certainly ways of doing it. The question is how, and finding the answer to it is the hard part.
Men usually immediately think of it as a challenge
fascinating generalization here btw. I have nothing else to say on it, so i’m just gonna let that one simmer i guess.
But instead men think of it as how women feel about any single man, including them.
this is one of the documented dangers of generalized statements. I think what happens here is that people make a generalization, and generalization usually include a social sub group. Think of “linux neckbeards” for example, and what happens when you make them, and specifically make statements about them that are negative. What i think happens, is that people see that, understand that you’re talking about the entire collective, and then realize that they’re a part of it, and that they’re a single individual. And if you think that badly of the group, you must therefore, think equally as bad as any given individual, and most people like to seem themselves as average, or above average, so what happens is that it impacts them. It’s the same reason people don’t like PR speak, it’s the same reason everyone hates HR, it’s the reason everyone hates legislation and politicians. They never just say it, and as a result it’s always hiding behind this layer of literary function. And people don’t like being spoken to like they aren’t people.
A good solution to this problem, obviously, is to stop making them. That’s a good start. Another solution, and the one that i like to employ because it’s a lot more versatile, is to speak about something in a very analytical manner. I speak about things directly, but i also speak about them in a very disconnected tone, so that it’s obvious that my thoughts are independent from my person. It also tends to instill a similar rhetoric in the other individual, because you sort of have to respond to it in kind, given it’s wording.
When you come off adversarial, people are going to respond in an adversarial manner. When you come off disconnected and flippant manner, people will also recognize that, and respond in kind. There will always be an individual who doesn’t respond in kind, and we refer to them as outliers, in a societal manner. There are either, unconscionably good people, or they are criminals, who do not respect the law.
speaking about the previously mentioned solution again, i’ve tried to do that with this response, i don’t have forever to work on this, so i’m not proof reading it lmao. But you may have noticed i’m not talking about you, or women more generically. I’m not talking about what you said literally, i’m talking about what was said in a more broad and societal manner. The reason why is that it doesn’t read lightly. And frankly, being angry on the internet all day, not very healthy, so i try to be pretty cognizant of it from time to time. Since i’ve isolated it, and i’m speaking about it more clinically. It’s much easier to disconnect me from your statements, and you from your statements as well. The hope here is that i can at least give you something to think about, whether it perhaps makes your day better, or gives you some food for thought, idk. That’s not my prerogative ultimately, that decision is up to the reader of this wall of text. At the end of the day i just want people to think more with their brains, and say less with anger. It’s good for you mentally, it keeps your brain healthy, and it promotes a more functional society.
in a way, you can look at this post as me trying to practice what i preach. We all strive to be good people, but don’t always try to be good people.
edit: im back, sorry i forgot to mention something i wanted to talk about right now.
There’s currently a big problem with red pill manosphere type shit right? You ever wonder why? It turns out the answer is pretty clear if you just look a little bit into it. Bear with me, i’m using free market economic theory here, it’s going to get a little funky. This is a missing market segmentation, and what we’re seeing is, people capitalizing on it. Not because it’s good content, but because there is so little existing, productive content that shovelling out this dogshit content in place, apparently suffices for a considerable amount of the market buyers. It’s increasingly reported across young men that they “have no purpose” and “don’t know what to do” and “don’t feel important” etc… The landscape is shifting. (i found the word limit lol, never mind, was going to add more, i can’t)
*Kinda hard to have an equal discussion when being a woman entails being sexually harassed and occasionally assaulted by a bunch of men, mostly ones you barely know or don’t know at all, on a regular basis before you even hit puberty.*
genuine question, how do you expect it to get any better if you aren’t being civil?
The decision matrix here isn’t [civil engagement ||or|| uncivil engagement], but rather:
[civil engagementandincur non-zero risk of uncivil retaliation ||or|| do not engage]
Non-participation is the safer option, broadly speaking. If your speaking with a stranger, it’s better to let a minor slight slide, than to engage civilly. As you get to know someone better, as you become more familiar with conditions, this chart becomes a secondary consideration or even unnecessary. But with strangers, you never know if you’re dealing with an outlier.
Person wrote a whole, nuanced, and detailed response outlining the various communications issues and such (including already addressing your robotic interpretation), and that’s all you contribute?
Considering it’s a whole lot of aggrieved bullshit revolving around civility-haranguing, you’re lucky the harangued respondent even gave that much. Posts like this are deadass why when debate pervs start debate perving to that magnitude, I respond with “I’m real happy you feel that way but I’m not reading all that shit”
Cause I want the 10 minutes it took me to get through all that ego-brain bullshit returned to my possession
Kinda hard to have an equal discussion when being a woman entails being sexually harassed and occasionally assaulted by a bunch of men, mostly ones you barely know or don’t know at all, on a regular basis before you even hit puberty. Your “sex war” is more like a sex genocide with the effects biting the whole male demographic in the ass, even the ones who didn’t cause it.
It’s also hard when most of the men that participate in this discussion (despite often not wanting to admit it at first) subconsciously think that women should listen to their venting 5 seconds after meeting them and be in a relationship with them and hug them and bang them and stuff. Seriously, interacting with guys just feels like gambling, with most of them forming some sort of unhealthy obsession with you and taking your kindness as a sign of weakness or inability to see their red flags; to a lot of guys, interaction with them is basically a green light to move on you. It sometimes feels like life is a “don’t unintentionally upset or engage with a random man too much or else he might find your phone number on the dark web and send you texts threatening to rape, torture, and murder you”. We live in a society where it’s relatively common for high school girls to have a guy classmate they occasionally talk to tell/text them that they wanna rape her, just unfiltered and out there because she decided to have a conversation.
Their problems are caused by patriarchy too, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to subject myself to sexism from them. They, whether they realize it or not, feel like they deserve what they want from a woman, the unfairness of women not wanting them makes them frustrated and they see gender equality as a means to an end, they see it as a way to have women finally love them.
It’s not so much of “women and men are equally fucking up and need to make up” as it is “women are extremely scared by men, and negotiating with the likely emotionally unstable potentially violent people with nothing to lose who probably thought about you and them dating immediately after seeing you never seems like the good option”. It’s like encouraging kids to interact with people who they think are violent and might shoot up a school in order to convince them not to shoot up the school… Even talking to someone out of pity is endangering yourself.
Most guys want to get in your pants or eventually get to that point, whether you’re apathetic to them or nice to them or mean to them. How am I supposed to talk to guys about sexism when usually their main concern is the lack of action with women and my main concern is interacting with men is inherently extremely risky and I fear I’m about to get raped or murdered when a man raises his voice at me?
It has to be at least 95% of straight men who are the danger women have to do conversational twister with to be relatively safe and comfortable around, and the remaining portion of men usually take an “insult” about the majority of men as an “insult” to them.
Men and women are both negatively affected by our sexist system but the playing field is not level. The solution is getting a majority of men to realize exactly what women deal with from men, and getting them to actively work against their subconscious sexism to promote a safer environment for women and remove the high risk of interacting with men, including by halting the rampant objectification of women and their bodies, so women and men can actually be humans with each other for real. The widespread outrage things like the bear meme gets show that this probably isn’t going to work out any time soon. Men usually immediately think of it as a challenge to “prove” that women are worse by saying a lot of them are bitchy and hard to read and gold diggers or something, rather than a way to understand why women can’t feel safe around men the same way they can around women. But instead men think of it as how women feel about any single man, including them.
At least there are communities like [email protected] that are on the right path though. Sigh.
Thank you for going out of your way to say this 💯
genuine question, how do you expect it to get any better if you aren’t being civil? Like yeah theoretically if someone punches you or something, it’d feel good, and probably be legal to bash them over the head with a tire iron, but let’s be honest, the only thing that’s gonna do is end up with one of you dead. Which might work on the scale of war.
But when we’re talking about something on the scale of, literally half of society (or all of it), i don’t see how you expect that to work. I also don’t expect it to work, don’t get me wrong, i love having in depth conversations about problems, it’s fun. There’s an unspoken rule that goes a little something like “play hard, fight hard”
it’s definitely interesting i’ve talked to a number of people, being an aro/ace myself it’s really weird talking to horny people. I can safely say, being told by a friend of yours that “they would like to rape you” is definitely one of the experiences of all time. My response to that is and will always be “i will kill you” because seriously what the fuck.
I get the feeling that people are probably over pathologizing it, because it’s hard to define, understand, and conceptualize why another person would ever fucking say that. I dont think it’s explicitly due to negligence, i think it’s a little more nuanced. Though i still think the defining factor here would be aggression, as that’s usually what follows intent.
i think you might be misunderstanding the point here, i think the intent is specifically that women don’t know how to effectively communicate this problem, generally because violence scary. And the fact that men generally aren’t aware of it, because they aren’t self conscious to that degree, or they simply don’t have that level of real world experience surrounding them. It’s hard to ask questions you don’t know how to ask after all. I think some men don’t think/realize that it’s a problem, and since nobody seems to be informing them otherwise. Continue thinking that. I think there are an extreme minority that think otherwise, or at least i like to that think that way. Because otherwise i would expect a shit ton more crime be going on than there seems to be right now. I think for them, they’re probably more actively involved in these spaces, than other people are (on account of the hateful rhetoric) and as a result outweigh the better people, significantly. By a few factors i think.
There’s also the question of whether some of these are just literal bots now? Because that might be a thing.
i think this part calls back to the previous part i mentioned about the original comment here, i don’t think anybody understands what’s happening, and i don’t think anybody understands what to do about it either. Also i feel like this over sexualizes men? Than again i’m also aro/ace so like, good luck making me horny (maybe i just don’t fucking understand it lol). In certain contexts i could see this being very true. On dating apps for example. At a bar for another one. Generally, just out in society. I don’t think that’s really the case. Because if most men are thinking about sex constantly that’s called porn addiction. That’s bad.
my point ultimately, is that as a male, or at least a male presenting individual, it’s impossible for me to be capable of understanding the quintessential experience of “being a woman” likewise, as a female, it’s also impossible to understand the quintessential experience of “being a man” and when you’re trying to speak across the divide, like a language barrier, it’s really difficult to effectively make a point, that either side can understand, that communicates problems between the two. Direct communication is probably the best solution, given that it requires the least amount of effort to think about. The problem here is how do we most effectively communicate the problem directly. There are almost certainly ways of doing it. The question is how, and finding the answer to it is the hard part.
fascinating generalization here btw. I have nothing else to say on it, so i’m just gonna let that one simmer i guess.
this is one of the documented dangers of generalized statements. I think what happens here is that people make a generalization, and generalization usually include a social sub group. Think of “linux neckbeards” for example, and what happens when you make them, and specifically make statements about them that are negative. What i think happens, is that people see that, understand that you’re talking about the entire collective, and then realize that they’re a part of it, and that they’re a single individual. And if you think that badly of the group, you must therefore, think equally as bad as any given individual, and most people like to seem themselves as average, or above average, so what happens is that it impacts them. It’s the same reason people don’t like PR speak, it’s the same reason everyone hates HR, it’s the reason everyone hates legislation and politicians. They never just say it, and as a result it’s always hiding behind this layer of literary function. And people don’t like being spoken to like they aren’t people.
A good solution to this problem, obviously, is to stop making them. That’s a good start. Another solution, and the one that i like to employ because it’s a lot more versatile, is to speak about something in a very analytical manner. I speak about things directly, but i also speak about them in a very disconnected tone, so that it’s obvious that my thoughts are independent from my person. It also tends to instill a similar rhetoric in the other individual, because you sort of have to respond to it in kind, given it’s wording.
When you come off adversarial, people are going to respond in an adversarial manner. When you come off disconnected and flippant manner, people will also recognize that, and respond in kind. There will always be an individual who doesn’t respond in kind, and we refer to them as outliers, in a societal manner. There are either, unconscionably good people, or they are criminals, who do not respect the law.
speaking about the previously mentioned solution again, i’ve tried to do that with this response, i don’t have forever to work on this, so i’m not proof reading it lmao. But you may have noticed i’m not talking about you, or women more generically. I’m not talking about what you said literally, i’m talking about what was said in a more broad and societal manner. The reason why is that it doesn’t read lightly. And frankly, being angry on the internet all day, not very healthy, so i try to be pretty cognizant of it from time to time. Since i’ve isolated it, and i’m speaking about it more clinically. It’s much easier to disconnect me from your statements, and you from your statements as well. The hope here is that i can at least give you something to think about, whether it perhaps makes your day better, or gives you some food for thought, idk. That’s not my prerogative ultimately, that decision is up to the reader of this wall of text. At the end of the day i just want people to think more with their brains, and say less with anger. It’s good for you mentally, it keeps your brain healthy, and it promotes a more functional society.
in a way, you can look at this post as me trying to practice what i preach. We all strive to be good people, but don’t always try to be good people.
edit: im back, sorry i forgot to mention something i wanted to talk about right now.
There’s currently a big problem with red pill manosphere type shit right? You ever wonder why? It turns out the answer is pretty clear if you just look a little bit into it. Bear with me, i’m using free market economic theory here, it’s going to get a little funky. This is a missing market segmentation, and what we’re seeing is, people capitalizing on it. Not because it’s good content, but because there is so little existing, productive content that shovelling out this dogshit content in place, apparently suffices for a considerable amount of the market buyers. It’s increasingly reported across young men that they “have no purpose” and “don’t know what to do” and “don’t feel important” etc… The landscape is shifting. (i found the word limit lol, never mind, was going to add more, i can’t)
The decision matrix here isn’t [civil engagement ||
or|| uncivil engagement], but rather:[civil engagement
andincur non-zero risk of uncivil retaliation ||or|| do not engage]Non-participation is the safer option, broadly speaking. If your speaking with a stranger, it’s better to let a minor slight slide, than to engage civilly. As you get to know someone better, as you become more familiar with conditions, this chart becomes a secondary consideration or even unnecessary. But with strangers, you never know if you’re dealing with an outlier.
Person wrote a whole, nuanced, and detailed response outlining the various communications issues and such (including already addressing your robotic interpretation), and that’s all you contribute?
Considering it’s a whole lot of aggrieved bullshit revolving around civility-haranguing, you’re lucky the harangued respondent even gave that much. Posts like this are deadass why when debate pervs start debate perving to that magnitude, I respond with “I’m real happy you feel that way but I’m not reading all that shit”
Cause I want the 10 minutes it took me to get through all that ego-brain bullshit returned to my possession