It’s worth responding to your edit in a separate comment.
First, China. That data shows 45% living under $10 a day, and has no data provided on the “poverty rate” column. Not only are you misreporting by 11%, but you are conveniently reporting the wrong data. Essentially, you reported the wrong quantity for the wrong quality. Furthermore, this data is half a decade old, when we know 3 years ago China completed a mass poverty aleviation campaign and over the course of around a decade uplifted 800 million people out of poverty.
Furthermore, 10 dollars gets you far more in different parts of China than the wealthier coastal cities, who were the first to be developed more thoroughly. Given that a century ago China was among the poorest countries in the world, its progress has been astounding overall, and in the more rural inland areas have been a major focus in the last decade. Unlike more developed countries, China is still a developing country, and as such despite its rapid improvement has a long way to go before every area is like one of the more developed tier 1 cities.
Secondly, the USSR. Not only is this article from a Private Christian College, it does’t contradict that, again, wealth disparity shrank to one of the lowest in the world while maintaining some of the highest rates of economic growth in the world, free, high quality education and healthcare were provided, literacy rates more than tripled to the highest in the world, science, technology, culture, and even sports flourished. Life expectancy doubled, and despite having much of their housing destroyed by the Nazi invasion in WWII, they quickly built the now stereotyped “soviet bloc” housing to house as many people as possible.
All the article really seems to say, therefore, is that society wasn’t perfect, which nobody here has said. It does not make the case that the Socialist system was worse than the semi-feudalism of before or the Capitalism it is today, rather, it just said some degree of corruption existed but in a way that was far less than it was before or after Socialism.
The fact that you are either intentionally or unintentionally reporting wrong numbers for wrong metrics that are already outdated as some “gotcha” for countries that began as some of the poorest on the planet, and use the fact that the aren’t like the Nordic Countries, that have spend centuries pillaging and looting the Global South and had centuries longer to develop, is dishonest and ill-informed. I suggest reading Super Imperialism by Hudson if you want to take a modern (2021 is the latest revision) look at the way the Global North, and specifically the US, rob and loot the world.
I can’t take anything you’re saying seriously because it’s just delusional, I am sorry.
Why do I say what you’re saying is delusional. Look, you’re opining about some made up thing I said (btw, I said 50% as a rough figure looking at the color bar, it’s 45.8%), but you’re neglecting that the many, many capitalists nations have MUCH LESS POOR PEOPLE PER CAPITA than China. So what exactly am I supposed to do, take their way of governance as something to aspire to? No, thank you. I am not anti-social and I hope better for others.
Stalin’s USSR proved that elitism and greed infects all economic tools and social ideologies. We also see this in China because no one is effectively allowed to own their home, the land is leased by the government. So consider this, if socialists like Stalin care so much about people, and the CPP is the modern equivalent of an anti-capitalist (not pure socialist) state, then what do you do with the 45.8% people making $10 per day (the US is at a hellish 2.2%). Why hasn’t China fixed their poverty by now?
In Stalins USSR, why were there bread lines for the common folk while their leaders had caviar and chocolate.** I am sure that’s because they weren’t “real” socialists, and I am sure you’ll do better!
Let’s also remember, that Stalin stole properties from the gentry, and made them mixed housing, but he and his family still lived in mansions. These are historical facts, just because you don’t like the people who say them doesn’t erase them from existence or history.
I also find it hilarious that communists will preach socialism to those who reside in capitalist countries, completely neglecting that converting to Stalin or China type socialism will make the average American poorer because at least 60% of Americans actually own their own property, the land is not leased. So power to the minority 40% or 2.2% making less than $10 per day? The revolution surely will be great for the majority!
I am not saying there aren’t things to fix, I just find the communists and socialists arguing with such passion and zeal and sophistry to be inherently disingenuous because the facts show that they’re only interested in enriching themselves, so they mobilize people instead of armies to achieve that goal.
I also find it hilarious that communists will preach socialism to those who reside in capitalist countries, completely neglecting that converting to Stalin or China type socialism will make the average American poorer because at least 60% of Americans actually own their own property, the land is not leased.
That is true for private property, meaning land for resource extraction and for situating factories & offices, not for personal property, meaning homes to live in.
Why do insist on being confidently incorrect over and over?
It’s extremely simple, the Capitalist countries wealthier than China are wealthier because they colonize and loot the world. This isn’t delusion, but fact. China has solved their major poverty issues as I linked, it seems you think that the instant a country adopts a system it instantaneously takes on the form of a maximally developed version of itself as if time doesn’t exist. The PRC is growing at a far faster rate than the dying Capitalist countries in the Global North.
As for the USSR, it’s not at all a problem to appropriate housing from the gentry, and wealth disparity dramatically lowered. Both the PRC and USSR are real examples of Socialism, handing out food to those who need it and ending famine in a country where famine was cyclical under the Tsar is a good thing.
As for USians, the majority would get wealthier without Capitalists expropriating from them like Bezos and Musk, I have no idea where you think wealth would evaporate to. By owning production in common and directing among a common plan, median wealth rises, as happens in AES coutries.
It’s pretty disingenuous when you pretend Communists and Socialists to only be interested in enriching themselves when you have been given many primary and scholarly secondary sources proving much the opposite. I have done what you wanted and checked your sources, but despite your claims that you would check out the sources others have listed it’s clear you actually haven’t. The only conclusion, therefore, is that you don’t actually care, and just want to argue online.
It’s not okay to take others peoples stuff just because you want it. That’s barbaric and uncivil.
It’s better to implement taxes and democratically decide how those revenues should be used.
Edit I am not going to bother responding to the rest of your post, it’s clear that you’re willing to paint a rosy picture on any pile of bodies and call it day.
This person is very smug about her capitalist realism, probably because she’s convinced that she personally benefits from it and wants to maintain it, while simultaneously crying liberal crocodile tears about the damage it does.
There are no “other sides” to capitalism than the oligarchy and their imperialist projects that you say you have never liked.
The US has never been and will never be a democracy, because it was born of a bourgeois revolution[1]. The wealthy, white, male, land-owning, largely slave-owning Founding Fathers constructed a bourgeois state with “checks and balances” against the “tyranny of the majority”. It was never meant to represent the majority—the working class—and it never has, despite eventually allowing women and non-whites (at least those not disenfranchised by the carceral system) to vote. [Princeton & Northwestern] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
It’s worth responding to your edit in a separate comment.
First, China. That data shows 45% living under $10 a day, and has no data provided on the “poverty rate” column. Not only are you misreporting by 11%, but you are conveniently reporting the wrong data. Essentially, you reported the wrong quantity for the wrong quality. Furthermore, this data is half a decade old, when we know 3 years ago China completed a mass poverty aleviation campaign and over the course of around a decade uplifted 800 million people out of poverty.
Furthermore, 10 dollars gets you far more in different parts of China than the wealthier coastal cities, who were the first to be developed more thoroughly. Given that a century ago China was among the poorest countries in the world, its progress has been astounding overall, and in the more rural inland areas have been a major focus in the last decade. Unlike more developed countries, China is still a developing country, and as such despite its rapid improvement has a long way to go before every area is like one of the more developed tier 1 cities.
Secondly, the USSR. Not only is this article from a Private Christian College, it does’t contradict that, again, wealth disparity shrank to one of the lowest in the world while maintaining some of the highest rates of economic growth in the world, free, high quality education and healthcare were provided, literacy rates more than tripled to the highest in the world, science, technology, culture, and even sports flourished. Life expectancy doubled, and despite having much of their housing destroyed by the Nazi invasion in WWII, they quickly built the now stereotyped “soviet bloc” housing to house as many people as possible.
All the article really seems to say, therefore, is that society wasn’t perfect, which nobody here has said. It does not make the case that the Socialist system was worse than the semi-feudalism of before or the Capitalism it is today, rather, it just said some degree of corruption existed but in a way that was far less than it was before or after Socialism.
The fact that you are either intentionally or unintentionally reporting wrong numbers for wrong metrics that are already outdated as some “gotcha” for countries that began as some of the poorest on the planet, and use the fact that the aren’t like the Nordic Countries, that have spend centuries pillaging and looting the Global South and had centuries longer to develop, is dishonest and ill-informed. I suggest reading Super Imperialism by Hudson if you want to take a modern (2021 is the latest revision) look at the way the Global North, and specifically the US, rob and loot the world.
I can’t take anything you’re saying seriously because it’s just delusional, I am sorry.
Why do I say what you’re saying is delusional. Look, you’re opining about some made up thing I said (btw, I said 50% as a rough figure looking at the color bar, it’s 45.8%), but you’re neglecting that the many, many capitalists nations have MUCH LESS POOR PEOPLE PER CAPITA than China. So what exactly am I supposed to do, take their way of governance as something to aspire to? No, thank you. I am not anti-social and I hope better for others.
Stalin’s USSR proved that elitism and greed infects all economic tools and social ideologies. We also see this in China because no one is effectively allowed to own their home, the land is leased by the government. So consider this, if socialists like Stalin care so much about people, and the CPP is the modern equivalent of an anti-capitalist (not pure socialist) state, then what do you do with the 45.8% people making $10 per day (the US is at a hellish 2.2%). Why hasn’t China fixed their poverty by now?
In Stalins USSR, why were there bread lines for the common folk while their leaders had caviar and chocolate.** I am sure that’s because they weren’t “real” socialists, and I am sure you’ll do better!
Let’s also remember, that Stalin stole properties from the gentry, and made them mixed housing, but he and his family still lived in mansions. These are historical facts, just because you don’t like the people who say them doesn’t erase them from existence or history.
https://hum54-15.omeka.fas.harvard.edu/exhibits/show/russian_dacha/joseph-stalin-s-dacha--the-ric
I also find it hilarious that communists will preach socialism to those who reside in capitalist countries, completely neglecting that converting to Stalin or China type socialism will make the average American poorer because at least 60% of Americans actually own their own property, the land is not leased. So power to the minority 40% or 2.2% making less than $10 per day? The revolution surely will be great for the majority!
I am not saying there aren’t things to fix, I just find the communists and socialists arguing with such passion and zeal and sophistry to be inherently disingenuous because the facts show that they’re only interested in enriching themselves, so they mobilize people instead of armies to achieve that goal.
Wealth per citizen by country, fyi: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult
This has gotten ridiculous. You’ve shown over and over that don’t know anything about anything, but you keep on going anyway.
And you’ve shown time and time again that you choose to misrepresent things. No one owns anything in China lol, the government leases the land.
That is true for private property, meaning land for resource extraction and for situating factories & offices, not for personal property, meaning homes to live in.
Why do insist on being confidently incorrect over and over?
Okay, here’s someone else then, basically there’s no ownership on land by anyone in China.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/vychg7/how_does_home_ownership_work_in_china/
The 90% figure also excludes rural residents, so it’s probably inflated.
It’s extremely simple, the Capitalist countries wealthier than China are wealthier because they colonize and loot the world. This isn’t delusion, but fact. China has solved their major poverty issues as I linked, it seems you think that the instant a country adopts a system it instantaneously takes on the form of a maximally developed version of itself as if time doesn’t exist. The PRC is growing at a far faster rate than the dying Capitalist countries in the Global North.
As for the USSR, it’s not at all a problem to appropriate housing from the gentry, and wealth disparity dramatically lowered. Both the PRC and USSR are real examples of Socialism, handing out food to those who need it and ending famine in a country where famine was cyclical under the Tsar is a good thing.
As for USians, the majority would get wealthier without Capitalists expropriating from them like Bezos and Musk, I have no idea where you think wealth would evaporate to. By owning production in common and directing among a common plan, median wealth rises, as happens in AES coutries.
It’s pretty disingenuous when you pretend Communists and Socialists to only be interested in enriching themselves when you have been given many primary and scholarly secondary sources proving much the opposite. I have done what you wanted and checked your sources, but despite your claims that you would check out the sources others have listed it’s clear you actually haven’t. The only conclusion, therefore, is that you don’t actually care, and just want to argue online.
It’s not okay to take others peoples stuff just because you want it. That’s barbaric and uncivil.
It’s better to implement taxes and democratically decide how those revenues should be used.
Edit I am not going to bother responding to the rest of your post, it’s clear that you’re willing to paint a rosy picture on any pile of bodies and call it day.
Gotcha, so you agree that Capitalists should not be able to steal from workers and you no longer support Imperialism, right?
Yeah, I’ve never liked the oligarchic and kleptocratic side of capitalism, that’s exactly what I said in my first post.
That entirely contradicts yourself though. You don’t support Capitalism, but you don’t support the only way it has been replaced historically.
This person is very smug about her capitalist realism, probably because she’s convinced that she personally benefits from it and wants to maintain it, while simultaneously crying liberal crocodile tears about the damage it does.
Yep, I’m kind of shocked how they openly are justifying and minimizing Imperialism, it’s rare to see someone so forthright with it like this.
There are no “other sides” to capitalism than the oligarchy and their imperialist projects that you say you have never liked.
The US has never been and will never be a democracy, because it was born of a bourgeois revolution[1]. The wealthy, white, male, land-owning, largely slave-owning Founding Fathers constructed a bourgeois state with “checks and balances” against the “tyranny of the majority”. It was never meant to represent the majority—the working class—and it never has, despite eventually allowing women and non-whites (at least those not disenfranchised by the carceral system) to vote. [Princeton & Northwestern] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy