I would argue that Wikipedia while not a great primary source has pretty stringent guidelines for providing sources in it’s articles. So you’ve answered with a thought terminating cliche and refused to elaborate. In other words you’re incorrect and to fragile to admit it.
It is the academic consensus even among western scholars that the Ukrainian famine was indeed a famine, not an intentional genocide. This is not my opinion, but, again, the overwhelming consensus even among the most anti-communist historians like Robert Conquest who described himself as a “cold warrior.” The leading western scholar on this issue, Stephen Wheatcroft, discussed the history of this in western academia in a paper I will link below.
He discusses how there was strong debate over it being a genocide in western academia up until the Soviet Union collapsed and the Soviet archives were open. When the archives were open, many historians expected to find a “smoking gun” showing that the Soviets deliberately had a policy of starving the Ukrainians, but such a thing was never found and so even the most hardened anti-communist historians were forced to change their tune (and indeed you can find many documents showing the Soviets ordering food to Ukraine such as this one and this one).
Wheatcroft considers Conquest changing his opinion as marking an end to that “era” in academia, but he also mentions that very recently there has been a revival of the claims of “genocide,” but these are clearly motivated and pushed by the Ukrainian state for political reasons and not academic reasons. It is literally a propaganda move. There are hostilities between the current Ukrainian state and the current Russian state, and so the current Ukrainian state has a vested interest in painting the Russian state poorly, and so reviving this old myth is good for its propaganda. But it is just that, state propaganda.
Discussions in the popular narrative of famine have changed over the years. During Soviet times there was a contrast between ‘man-made’ famine and ‘denial of famine’.‘Man-made’ at this time largely meant as a result of policy. Then there was a contrast between ‘man-made on purpose’, and ‘man-made by accident’ with charges of criminal neglect and cover up. This stage seemed to have ended in 2004 when Robert Conquest agreed that the famine was not man-made on purpose. But in the following ten years there has been a revival of the ‘man-made on purpose’ side. This reflects both a reduced interest in understanding the economic history, and increased attempts by the Ukrainian government to classify the ‘famine as a genocide’. It is time to return to paying more attention to economic explanations.
I know that after my death a pile of rubbish will be heaped on my grave, but the wind of History will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy. – I. V. Stalin, 1943
Victims of Communism is a specific propaganda campaign from various right wing orgs. Hence the capitalization. It attempts to draw an equivalence to mass murder performed by right wing regimes in order to delegitimize left alternative. All the while pushing right wing agendas. It’s also why such memorials often feature nazis as victims. A recent example.
Yes, there was a famine in the 1930s. It was largely due to adverse weather conditions, coupled with the bourgeois farmers called “kulaks” killing their livestock and burning their crops to resist the Red Army collectivizing agriculture. However, to paint those who died as “victims of communism” when the communists were the ones that finally ended famine in a region where famine was historically common and regular is hardly genuine.
The term “Holodomor,” the right-wing theory describing a man-made and intentional famine, was created by Ukrainian nationalists in the 80s. It was named as such to draw direct connection to the Holocaust, and as such is a form of Holocaust trivialization. Archival evidence proves that there was no such intentional famine, but it is used politically to demonize socialism in the real world, wielded like a club.
If you’re going to make up bullshit, you should first try learning at least the basics about what you’re talking about, so you don’t completely give away that you’re making up bullshit by making blatantly wrong mistakes like thinking Kulaks are an ethnicity.
The Kulaks’ “culture” was to slave-drive peasants into farming their land for them. That’s culture that should be killed just as the Confederates’ “cuture” was.
Lol. Nice try, but you already revealed you know jack shit about the subject - to the point you thought Kulaks were an ethnicity. So stop trying to make up more bullshit.
Ukrainian culture was preserved. Bourgeois farming was replaced with collectivized farming, and those who fought the red army and made the famine worse were targeted. Russians did not replace Ukrainians nor did the soviets incite a famine, adverse weather conditions started a famine and the kulaks made it worse by torching their farms and killing their livestock to protest collectivization.
You are parroting literal Nazi propaganda. I know Canada has a thing for Nazis, but this is beyond the normal levels.
What israel was to jews after WW2, Canada was to the other side.
And particularly the SS division Galizien.
Their offspring still spreading their cancerous ideology
You keep repeating literal Nazi propaganda, unsourced. I’m already in reality and am looking past decades old Nazi propaganda, you should try it sometime.
The irony of saying this as someone ensconced in human history’s biggest propaganda bubble to people who have gone to the time and effort to educate themselves through primary sources is staggering, what color is the sky in this reality of yours?
Kulaks were not an ethnic group, but a class of bourgeois farmers. That’s like saying the US outlawing slavery “killed Confederate culture.” The famine was not preventable, and there’s absolutely no evidence that the soviets wanted to replace ethnic minorities, the opposite is true. The soviets tried to preserve Ukrainian culture while establishing a common “soviet identity,” in line with being a multinational federation.
The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.
Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Comrade Kosior!
You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation invillages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?
Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of
the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.
Sincerely, J. Stalin
The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. We are not qustioning the legitimacy of the famine, but whether or not it was intentional, which all evidence post-opening of the soviet archives points to it not being intentional.
The Kulaks killed by the Soviets were primarily Ukranian, and many farmers who weren’t Kulaks were still branded enemies of the state to deport them and kill off Ukranian independence and culture. It is clear they were not trying to preserve Ukranian culture, but to subvert and replace it and use the valuable agricultural land.
If that was the intent, why were they given their own Soviet Socialist Republic and not just folded into the Russian one? Would-be conquerors don’t give statehood and political autonomy to the people they’re trying to erase and absorb.
Clearly this process was not successful. If the Soviets were not trying to directly control the land and people to slowly assimilate, why wasn’t Ukraine a satellite republic like Poland?
Then why leave Poland out of the union but not Ukraine. Unless you want direct control over the land and want to replace the people to consolidate that control.
The slave owners killed by the northerners were primarily white southerners that tortured and killed slaves. Kulaks were not an ethnicity to be targeted for eradication, but a class that often violently resisted collectivization. Kulaks that complied were largely left alone.
As I proved to you, the soviets actually supported the preservation of Ukrainian identity, which was oppressed by the Tsarist empire. The soviet union was a multinational federation, it was in everyone’s interests for people to not starve, as you need people to farm. Russians were not trying to replace Ukrainians, a naturally occuring famine was made worse by kulaks resisting collectivization. After collectivization, crop yields were higher, and famine eradicated.
Every year since 1929 has seen the publication of more books in the Ukrainian language than were published in the whole 118 years before the Revolution.
What a novel way to attempt to wipe out a language, publishing books in it.
If the USSR was trying to kill their culture, they weren’t very good at it, because Ukrainians are still speaking Ukrainian to this day.
Taking this argument in isolation, it’s the same argument used today to say Israel isn’t conducting a genocide. “If Israel wanted to genocide Palestinians, they aren’t very good at it, cause only 70K killed.”
Taken in isolation, THIS argument could be used to cast the Allied invasion of Italy in WW2 as a project of genocide. They did kill a number of Italians, after all.
Exactly. Another great example from my country is Milada Horáková who was a member of a movement against nazis and later against communists and was murdered by communists.
Sure, the USSR did kill a lot of Nazis. But to claim all of the victims of communism were Nazis is bullshit
Lol, I didn’t have to read the URL to know what that link was going to be. Wikipedia continues to be The Holy Scripture to western shitlibs
You should really counter point with your own source if you’re going to tell someone their source is insufficient
No. That’s not remotely how that works.
I would argue that Wikipedia while not a great primary source has pretty stringent guidelines for providing sources in it’s articles. So you’ve answered with a thought terminating cliche and refused to elaborate. In other words you’re incorrect and to fragile to admit it.
Removed by mod
Shitlibs when the Holy Scripture is questioned.
It is the academic consensus even among western scholars that the Ukrainian famine was indeed a famine, not an intentional genocide. This is not my opinion, but, again, the overwhelming consensus even among the most anti-communist historians like Robert Conquest who described himself as a “cold warrior.” The leading western scholar on this issue, Stephen Wheatcroft, discussed the history of this in western academia in a paper I will link below.
He discusses how there was strong debate over it being a genocide in western academia up until the Soviet Union collapsed and the Soviet archives were open. When the archives were open, many historians expected to find a “smoking gun” showing that the Soviets deliberately had a policy of starving the Ukrainians, but such a thing was never found and so even the most hardened anti-communist historians were forced to change their tune (and indeed you can find many documents showing the Soviets ordering food to Ukraine such as this one and this one).
Wheatcroft considers Conquest changing his opinion as marking an end to that “era” in academia, but he also mentions that very recently there has been a revival of the claims of “genocide,” but these are clearly motivated and pushed by the Ukrainian state for political reasons and not academic reasons. It is literally a propaganda move. There are hostilities between the current Ukrainian state and the current Russian state, and so the current Ukrainian state has a vested interest in painting the Russian state poorly, and so reviving this old myth is good for its propaganda. But it is just that, state propaganda.
I know that after my death a pile of rubbish will be heaped on my grave, but the wind of History will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy. – I. V. Stalin, 1943
Victims of Communism is a specific propaganda campaign from various right wing orgs. Hence the capitalization. It attempts to draw an equivalence to mass murder performed by right wing regimes in order to delegitimize left alternative. All the while pushing right wing agendas. It’s also why such memorials often feature nazis as victims. A recent example.
Yes, there was a famine in the 1930s. It was largely due to adverse weather conditions, coupled with the bourgeois farmers called “kulaks” killing their livestock and burning their crops to resist the Red Army collectivizing agriculture. However, to paint those who died as “victims of communism” when the communists were the ones that finally ended famine in a region where famine was historically common and regular is hardly genuine.
The term “Holodomor,” the right-wing theory describing a man-made and intentional famine, was created by Ukrainian nationalists in the 80s. It was named as such to draw direct connection to the Holocaust, and as such is a form of Holocaust trivialization. Archival evidence proves that there was no such intentional famine, but it is used politically to demonize socialism in the real world, wielded like a club.
Removed by mod
If you’re going to make up bullshit, you should first try learning at least the basics about what you’re talking about, so you don’t completely give away that you’re making up bullshit by making blatantly wrong mistakes like thinking Kulaks are an ethnicity.
The Kulaks’ “culture” was to slave-drive peasants into farming their land for them. That’s culture that should be killed just as the Confederates’ “cuture” was.
Removed by mod
Lol. Nice try, but you already revealed you know jack shit about the subject - to the point you thought Kulaks were an ethnicity. So stop trying to make up more bullshit.
Ukrainian culture was preserved. Bourgeois farming was replaced with collectivized farming, and those who fought the red army and made the famine worse were targeted. Russians did not replace Ukrainians nor did the soviets incite a famine, adverse weather conditions started a famine and the kulaks made it worse by torching their farms and killing their livestock to protest collectivization.
You are parroting literal Nazi propaganda. I know Canada has a thing for Nazis, but this is beyond the normal levels.
It’s okay .ml, someday you will return to reality with the rest of us and look past the decades old propaganda.
no u
This from the dumbass who thought Kulaks were an ethnic group.
.ca says enough for me.
What israel was to jews after WW2, Canada was to the other side.
And particularly the SS division Galizien.
Their offspring still spreading their cancerous ideology
Removed by mod
You keep repeating literal Nazi propaganda, unsourced. I’m already in reality and am looking past decades old Nazi propaganda, you should try it sometime.
The irony of saying this as someone ensconced in human history’s biggest propaganda bubble to people who have gone to the time and effort to educate themselves through primary sources is staggering, what color is the sky in this reality of yours?
Kulaks were not an ethnic group, but a class of bourgeois farmers. That’s like saying the US outlawing slavery “killed Confederate culture.” The famine was not preventable, and there’s absolutely no evidence that the soviets wanted to replace ethnic minorities, the opposite is true. The soviets tried to preserve Ukrainian culture while establishing a common “soviet identity,” in line with being a multinational federation.
The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. We are not qustioning the legitimacy of the famine, but whether or not it was intentional, which all evidence post-opening of the soviet archives points to it not being intentional.
The Kulaks killed by the Soviets were primarily Ukranian, and many farmers who weren’t Kulaks were still branded enemies of the state to deport them and kill off Ukranian independence and culture. It is clear they were not trying to preserve Ukranian culture, but to subvert and replace it and use the valuable agricultural land.
If that was the intent, why were they given their own Soviet Socialist Republic and not just folded into the Russian one? Would-be conquerors don’t give statehood and political autonomy to the people they’re trying to erase and absorb.
Clearly this process was not successful. If the Soviets were not trying to directly control the land and people to slowly assimilate, why wasn’t Ukraine a satellite republic like Poland?
Because “soviet” isn’t a nationality, but a multinational federation of socialist republics.
Then why leave Poland out of the union but not Ukraine. Unless you want direct control over the land and want to replace the people to consolidate that control.
The slave owners killed by the northerners were primarily white southerners that tortured and killed slaves. Kulaks were not an ethnicity to be targeted for eradication, but a class that often violently resisted collectivization. Kulaks that complied were largely left alone.
As I proved to you, the soviets actually supported the preservation of Ukrainian identity, which was oppressed by the Tsarist empire. The soviet union was a multinational federation, it was in everyone’s interests for people to not starve, as you need people to farm. Russians were not trying to replace Ukrainians, a naturally occuring famine was made worse by kulaks resisting collectivization. After collectivization, crop yields were higher, and famine eradicated.
You are parroting literal Nazi propaganda.
If the USSR was trying to kill their culture, they weren’t very good at it, because Ukrainians are still speaking Ukrainian to this day.
No shit. That’s the point of socialism: to expropriate bourgeois private property and redistribute it to the masses.
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What a novel way to attempt to wipe out a language, publishing books in it.
Heh, novel way
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Taking this argument in isolation, it’s the same argument used today to say Israel isn’t conducting a genocide. “If Israel wanted to genocide Palestinians, they aren’t very good at it, cause only 70K killed.”
Taken in isolation, THIS argument could be used to cast the Allied invasion of Italy in WW2 as a project of genocide. They did kill a number of Italians, after all.
Does Israel recognize the state of Palestine?
But did the allies attempt to destroy Italian culture, language, and identity, along with systematically killing Italian civilians?
Does it matter what Israel thinks?
Exactly. Another great example from my country is Milada Horáková who was a member of a movement against nazis and later against communists and was murdered by communists.