Is it really necessary to be demeaning? I’m sure you feel like they all deserve it, and probably some of them do, but also some of them are probably decent people who are trying to be outgoing and probably had to work up a lot of courage to try to start a conversation with you.
Do you really need to crush them when a simple no will suffice? If they don’t take a simple no for an answer, then you know they deserve harsher treatment. But wanting to destroy someone’s spirit over a simple interaction seems a bit sadistic. I mean, how would you feel if someone did that to you?
See, this is flawed. You clearly don’t understand how demeaning it is for you to be approached sometimes multiple times a day to be treated like a sexual object while you’re just trying to go about your day. The context is important here. If I were doing this at a dating function, or an online dating app, obviously that would be ridiculous. But I (and many women like me) don’t want to be constantly sexualized and objectified in every aspect of my life. I don’t care what your intentions are, you’re ruining my day coming up to remind me of the rampant misogyny that fuels these interactions. You want to flirt with me? Get my fucking consent. It is not hard to flirt with me in a social context where it is acceptable to do so, where there is an expectation of it. And if a man came up to me during those contexts? Honestly, I’d be caught off guard and incredibly confused because I only attend gay/lesbian dating functions, so I’m not sure what exactly I’d do, but it would be much more understanding. Well, at least so long as they take no for an answer.
How about we stop normalizing objectifying women? If you’re interested in someone beyond a one night stand, here’s an idea: introduce yourself and get to know them. If you are looking for a one night stand, do it somewhere it’s more appropriate. I don’t want to be stopped while I’m shopping for my groceries to turn down men who are struggling to look anywhere but my chest. It’s dehumanizing. You wanna ruin my day? Don’t be surprised if I ruin yours.
Oh, and to answer your question, I don’t approach people on the street and sexualize them. And if I did, then I’d damn well deserve to be knocked down a peg. I don’t need a constant reminder that some random guy wants to fuck me. Perhaps if your flirting wasn’t exclusively made up of poorly packaged excuses to say how the way I look makes you horny, I’d be a bit more accepting. After all, a genuinely nice comment about something I’m in control of and not merely my physical appearance is welcome. In fact, I respond quite well to that. Flirt with me in a respectable way that doesn’t ruin my mood, and I’ll be nice and polite when I turn you down. But that almost never happens with men. It’s the blatant sexualization that I have a clear problem with, and that is when I go out of my way to attack someone’s ego. Any of the “decent people” who approach me can do so in a way that respects me and treats me like a real human being, and not merely an object to fulfill their horny desires.
You’re right in that one interaction is not going to fix an asshole, but perhaps if there were actual efforts being made in society to keep men like that in check, we’d see their prevalence decrease. As is, they’re allowed to exist nearly completely unchecked (and often thrive, in fact), and so I feel the need to be one of the few people to “check” them.
Anyone else coming up to me who’s making it clear they’re just trying to fuck me can eat a dick for all I care. Do that in a place where it’s appropriate, not when I’m out having fun with friends, or god forbid literally on a date with another woman. Want to flirt with me anyway? Well you’ll have much better luck doing it in a way that isn’t sexualizing me. Compliment how I did my hair that day, how my outfit comes together, or something I did that you feel is commendable (and don’t give off that “I really wanna fuck you so I’m gonna compliment you until you say you like me back” body language while doing it; that’s not much better). Or y’know, just be friendly and polite and start a normal conversation with me and get to know me. You’ll get a nice response with warmth and friendliness (unless I’m in a bad mood or in a rush, but in that case it’s really more of a “sorry, I don’t have time to talk right now” kinda thing). If I can tell you’re flirting, I’ll politely let you down by saying I’m not interested in men. Call my ass big and allude to how much that turns you on and you’ll get a stone cold bitch who wants nothing to do with you.
Is it treating you like a sexual object to strike up a conversation? If they’re objectifying you, that’s one thing. Are they literally coming up to you and saying “Hey, wanna hook up?” Or do you consider it sexualization every time a man says hi?
Dating functions are one thing, but arguably only a small portion of dating activity takes place at those or begins from an interaction at one. And dating apps are notoriously toxic. The thing about genuine love is that it doesn’t happen when you mean it to. It’s unrealistic to expect to find it at those type of events. If it happens at all, it’s more likely to emerge organically. A chance encounter that turns into a coffee that turns into dinner that turns into three years and counting.
But if saying hi to that stranger with the cool style is inherently misogynistic, then how many chance encounters that would have had potential will be missed? That seems like a sad world, where everyone is isolated and no one is meeting the people who would be right for them because no one is talking or even beginning to get to know each other. And it seems like that’s the world we’re already living in.
Maybe I don’t quite get it, because I don’t understand flirting. I wouldn’t know how to do it if I set an intention to. I don’t really think about interactions as flirting. If I did I would just get nervous and awkward, and unable to think of anything to say. But retrospectively, there may have been times when I was trying to be friendly and outgoing that people thought I was flirting. I’m not really sure what counts as what. So should I have rbf all the time to avoid confusion?
If I’m interested in someone romantically, my first instinct isn’t to “flirt,” whatever it means. It’s more like “Can I learn her name? What can I learn about her personality? I wonder what she likes? Will she talk to me for long enough to develop a connection? How can I get to know her without sounding nosy?” In fact, when I really like someone I get so shy that she probably thinks I’m being standoffish.
The reverse is true too. I’ve thought someone was interested in me before, only to find out that she was just being friendly or had a bubbly personality. And likewise there have apparently been times when someone was dropping hints and they went right over my head. Clearly I don’t know “the code.”
And besides, how does one get consent to flirt? Do you literally say, “Hi, can I flirt with you?” I don’t know much about socializing, but I’m pretty sure that’s not how most people would do it, and it would come off as painfully awkward and cringe for everyone involved. What exactly are the logistics for requesting clearance to exchange lighthearted pleasantries in order to gauge whether someone might be interested in continuing the conversation? These things don’t come intuitively to me.
Is it treating you like a sexual object to strike up a conversation? If they’re objectifying you, that’s one thing. Are they literally coming up to you and saying “Hey, wanna hook up?” Or do you consider it sexualization every time a man says hi?
No, of course striking up a normal conversation is fine, I’m not gonna be mad at literally anyone for doing that; gender aside. Here’s a non-exhaustive list of some behaviors I have a problem with: coming up to me while clearly unable to keep your eyes off my body, using some shitty sexualizing pick-up line, saying something like “you’re hot” or “damn girl, you’ve got it going”, making comments solely about my inherited physical appearance (i.e. “nice ass”), alluding to how horny my body is making you, that kind of stuff. If someone comes up to me and gives me a genuine compliment (i.e. I love the way you did your hair, that outfit comes together really well, you did a really great job on [X thing they witnessed me do]), I’m not gonna go out of my way to check their ego.
Dating functions are one thing, but arguably only a small portion of dating activity takes place at those or begins from an interaction at one. And dating apps are notoriously toxic. The thing about genuine love is that it doesn’t happen when you mean it to. It’s unrealistic to expect to find it at those type of events. If it happens at all, it’s more likely to emerge organically. A chance encounter that turns into a coffee that turns into dinner that turns into three years and counting.
Yeah, and if someone comes up to me and actually tries to get to know me as a real, genuine human being, then that’s perfectly fine. If they make it clear they’re interested in me, then I’ll let them down gently, but getting to know someone in and of itself is not necessarily flirting (and I prefer not to imagine that anyone who strikes up a random conversation with me is in it for sex). Flirting, by definition, is acting in a way that shows you have sexual interest in the other person. To be honest, I’m not very comfortable in the idea that someone who hasn’t even asked my name has a sexual interest in me, but I’m not the type to engage in one night stands, either. I much prefer someone actually makes an effort to learn what I’m like before they express that interest.
Maybe I don’t quite get it, because I don’t understand flirting. I wouldn’t know how to do it if I set an intention to. I don’t really think about interactions as flirting. If I did I would just get nervous and awkward, and unable to think of anything to say. But retrospectively, there may have been times when I was trying to be friendly and outgoing that people thought I was flirting. I’m not really sure what counts as what. So should I have rbf all the time to avoid confusion?> If I’m interested in someone romantically, my first instinct isn’t to “flirt,” whatever it means. It’s more like “Can I learn her name? What can I learn about her personality? I wonder what she likes? Will she talk to me for long enough to develop a connection? How can I get to know her without sounding nosy?” In fact, when I really like someone I get so shy that she probably thinks I’m being standoffish.
You are not the problem, I promise. I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding here of what kind of flirting I’m talking about, and how exactly it’s upsetting. Let me provide an anecdote: I’m shopping for my weekly groceries, trying to just make my way through the store and check out. I’m approached by a guy who clearly can’t keep his eyes off of me who makes some dirty joke about the contents of my cart. “You’re hot as fuck, you know that?”. That’s the kind of shit that ruins my day. I’m just out there trying to buy a fucking loaf of bread, not trying to catch a one night stand with some guy who thinks of me as nothing more than a means to satisfy his obvious desires.
And besides, how does one get consent to flirt? Do you literally say, “Hi, can I flirt with you?” I don’t know much about socializing, but I’m pretty sure that’s not how most people would do it, and it would come off as painfully awkward and cringe for everyone involved. What exactly are the logistics for requesting clearance to exchange lighthearted pleasantries in order to gauge whether someone might be interested in continuing the conversation? These things don’t come intuitively to me.
Start a conversation. Make a genuine compliment, or express lighthearted interest. See if it’s reciprocated. Reciprocation is the key there. Flirting is very different for lesbians, so I don’t think I’m the girl to ask for advice here, as I’ll never reciprocate flirting with a man anyway. For me, as a lesbian? Telling if there is mutual interest can often be done through eye contact and body language alone. Regardless, I’d throw out a light compliment about something I genuinely like about her (that she had agency in choosing, as that’s much more flattering than gawking about someone’s physical appearance), and see what kind of response I get. It’s an easy way to test the waters. If her tone, body language, eye contact, and response are playful, I know I can keep going. It’s fine to casually compliment someone’s appearance if they express mutual interest, but do so in a respectful way (i.e. no “wow, you have a nice rack”). I also don’t flirt purely for the sake of flirting. I interlace it into conversation, as if I’m interested in someone, I actually want to get to know her before continuing.
I see. It sounds like some of the men you’ve encountered are pigs, and I can see how putting up with that could make someone cynical. I’m sorry that you go through that.
I overthink a lot because I don’t want to come off that way. I guess I can’t quite imagine the depravity that’s out there, so when I hear people talk about it my mind fills in a placeholder of something more innocuous, and then I worry that the things I thought were innocuous were actually perceived as worse. And that can be kinda paralyzing when I both don’t want to be perceived as a pig and I also don’t want to ruin someone’s day.
I’d still be afraid to compliment someone’s hair or outfit though. You seem to have a rational view, but there have definitely been times when it seemed like people were assuming the worst about me and reacting as if I had said something as depraved as the things you described. It’s not a good feeling. I don’t want to be painted with the same brush.
These days I don’t make an effort to meet people anymore. I’ve learned to accept my loneliness. The dating scene is too hostile, and I was always nervous and awkward about it to begin with. Rejection was always painful, but now it seems to come with extra layers of insult and derision.
I was never really a catch anyway. If there’s anything even remotely likeable about me, someone else does it better, guaranteed. So why should I waste anyone’s time?
Plus, judging solely from most of the discourse online, it seems like women don’t want to be approached at all. So I don’t even try anymore. Like, if she would literally rather encounter a bear in the woods than talk to me, then I’ll just pretend I don’t see her. I just tell myself that I’m expressing my affection by ignoring everyone I’m potentially interested in. Even if I think she’s sending signals, with body language, eye contact, tone, or whatever else, I wouldn’t trust my perception. I would assume I’m misreading the situation, because that’s easier to cope with than risking putting myself out there and being wrong.
Also, wanna just apologize, I was a lot more defensive than I needed to be because there was a misunderstanding of what I meant. I’m so used to misogyny being perpetuated that I immediately get defensive when I feel like that’s what’s happening. I could have been more clear in my initial comment about what I meant, and a bit less aggressive in my follow-up. I just get heated about these topics, and I think we both made some assumptions about what the other meant that caused a little bit of a misunderstanding.
It’s really more of a matter of the fact that the type of men that do approach me when I’d otherwise want to be left alone are a problem. I understand that there are plenty of guys who aren’t like that, but I experience a disproportionately large amount of…not so great men. It’s usually incredibly easy to tell if someone is genuinely complimenting me, or if they’re just trying to get in my pants there. There are so many micro expressions that give it away. And to be frank, if someone seemed nervous and approached me respectfully, I’d usually be quite nice in return, granted that they don’t check an item off my list of no-nos. It’s not men who have good intentions that piss me off, and I realized after posting that initial comment that this post is in a community that doesn’t have much of the same context I’m used to. If I posted that in a women’s space (which is usually where I’m found), other women would know exactly who I’m talking about without me having to clarify.
I think there’s a lot to be said about the issue of overthinking in the way you seem to be. The real enemy here is toxic masculinity that pushes a misogynistic agenda, it isn’t just men. It’s a specific social construct that is used to indoctrinate men. I feel bad for those who feel as if simply the act of being a man is something to be ashamed of. You can be a man and be a good person; the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I do, despite my ranting, know good men that I talk with regularly and get along with just fine. And someone approaching me with more wholesome intentions is not gonna get the horns, so to speak.
I do want to bring one thing up though. As a woman, it is fatiguing to have misogynistic assholes come up to you out of the blue. And the fact that it happens as often as it does makes it harder to feel optimistic about being approached by a man. There is a massive problem currently with gender division/exclusion. It’s based upon the fact that humans tend to generalize people so much. That’s motivated by our experiences, as our brains love to search for patterns in behaviors. Which means that when we experience one negative thing a lot, it becomes easy to “throw out the baby with the bathwater”, so to speak. I have no intention of leaving men as a whole out to dry, but I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of hostility there. I think the problem that we have, perhaps one of the biggest problems with society right now, is a lack of empathy. Which, if you’ve caught on, is exactly what toxic masculinity pushes. But women’s exposure to that toxic masculinity pushes it, too. We need some serious societal change to happen in order to even begin fixing these problems. And that change isn’t just going to come from women. It has to come from men who understand the atrocity of misogyny and toxic masculinity, too. After all, if men keep pushing for toxic masculinity, and keep accepting it, then the problem will only continue to get worse.
I also want to make myself clear: if you choose to compliment a woman, like by complimenting her hair, for instance, body language is incredibly important. The difference between someone who is genuinely complimenting me and someone who is trying to get in my pants is usually very obvious. And I think it’s very important not to simply make a show of complimenting a woman, regardless of what you say. What I mean by this is, have a normal conversation with her. Ask her (appropriate) things about herself, get to know her, compliment the things that matter in ways that show you see her as a person, and do so as part of a larger conversation (maybe it’s just me, but I don’t consider a conversation “normal” if someone is doing nothing but showering me in compliments; that feels weird, even if they’re genuine). You’ll have a much better chance of getting asked for coffee (or her accepting your request) if she feels like you care about her as a person. Now, I don’t have advice for one night stands, I just don’t do that and I don’t know how to play that game at all. I mean, technically, I do as a lesbian, but we flirt very differently. But I have a feeling that you aren’t angling at that anyway.
Tbh, I understand feeling like “other people do it better than you”. But what matters to me is someone’s personality. It isn’t just “they’re so good at this thing or that”, it’s “wow, we really play off each other well and kinda just fit together”. I don’t just approach the most attractive woman in the room, for instance. I’m much more drawn to people who give off the vibes I like to be around, and I have a sneaking suspicion that isn’t just a lesbian thing. Which is exactly why I prefer to just get to know someone rather than play the game of who can compliment the other person more. Romantic interest for me has very little to do with looks, or unique skills, or whatever shallow thing people might brag about themselves. It has much more to do with who a person is inside, and if that fits my own personality well. What kinds of things do they like? What kinds of opinions do they have? Where do they take the conversation, and how do they play off what I say? I don’t know if I’m in the minority there, but for me, that means anyone can really be an option. Someone doesn’t need to be the best at something, they just need to be themselves, and when they are, that tells me if we’d work.
I don’t have advice for you on how to get out there and meet people, because my main way of doing that is all queer-oriented activities. It’s much easier to find my people when I’m literally surrounded by them. But I guess, the same would apply to hobby activities? You can meet likeminded people who you have a better chance of getting along with just by doing something you both like together. What I’d caution against doing is going up to random people in a bar (unless you’re looking for a one night stand? Idk the rules there, but I mean, I’m not in that game to begin with) or on the street, or in any place where people are just running errands or getting through their day. People are much more open to talking with others when they’re doing something they’re passionate about (and you’re also interested in).
Anyway, TL;DR: I don’t mean to imply that all men are like the ones that come up to me and make me uncomfortable. There are some real societal issues pushing the divide between genders, one of great prominence being toxic masculinity (and by extension misogyny). I don’t really have a solution to that problem, so I cope with it in the best way I can for my own mental health. It’s easy to fall into the trap of feeling ashamed of your own gender, and I get that, but it’s not you that’s the problem. And I don’t think that it’s pointless to try meeting new people, it’s just harder these days to do that organically, so you’ve gotta find ways to find other likeminded people who are looking to meet others.
Is it really necessary to be demeaning? I’m sure you feel like they all deserve it, and probably some of them do, but also some of them are probably decent people who are trying to be outgoing and probably had to work up a lot of courage to try to start a conversation with you.
Do you really need to crush them when a simple no will suffice? If they don’t take a simple no for an answer, then you know they deserve harsher treatment. But wanting to destroy someone’s spirit over a simple interaction seems a bit sadistic. I mean, how would you feel if someone did that to you?
See, this is flawed. You clearly don’t understand how demeaning it is for you to be approached sometimes multiple times a day to be treated like a sexual object while you’re just trying to go about your day. The context is important here. If I were doing this at a dating function, or an online dating app, obviously that would be ridiculous. But I (and many women like me) don’t want to be constantly sexualized and objectified in every aspect of my life. I don’t care what your intentions are, you’re ruining my day coming up to remind me of the rampant misogyny that fuels these interactions. You want to flirt with me? Get my fucking consent. It is not hard to flirt with me in a social context where it is acceptable to do so, where there is an expectation of it. And if a man came up to me during those contexts? Honestly, I’d be caught off guard and incredibly confused because I only attend gay/lesbian dating functions, so I’m not sure what exactly I’d do, but it would be much more understanding. Well, at least so long as they take no for an answer.
How about we stop normalizing objectifying women? If you’re interested in someone beyond a one night stand, here’s an idea: introduce yourself and get to know them. If you are looking for a one night stand, do it somewhere it’s more appropriate. I don’t want to be stopped while I’m shopping for my groceries to turn down men who are struggling to look anywhere but my chest. It’s dehumanizing. You wanna ruin my day? Don’t be surprised if I ruin yours.
Oh, and to answer your question, I don’t approach people on the street and sexualize them. And if I did, then I’d damn well deserve to be knocked down a peg. I don’t need a constant reminder that some random guy wants to fuck me. Perhaps if your flirting wasn’t exclusively made up of poorly packaged excuses to say how the way I look makes you horny, I’d be a bit more accepting. After all, a genuinely nice comment about something I’m in control of and not merely my physical appearance is welcome. In fact, I respond quite well to that. Flirt with me in a respectable way that doesn’t ruin my mood, and I’ll be nice and polite when I turn you down. But that almost never happens with men. It’s the blatant sexualization that I have a clear problem with, and that is when I go out of my way to attack someone’s ego. Any of the “decent people” who approach me can do so in a way that respects me and treats me like a real human being, and not merely an object to fulfill their horny desires.
You should know that the only people you’re going to affect are the ones who actually care about what you think of them.
The assholes are just ‘fishing’ and will completely forget about your response when they try to get with their next target.
You’re right in that one interaction is not going to fix an asshole, but perhaps if there were actual efforts being made in society to keep men like that in check, we’d see their prevalence decrease. As is, they’re allowed to exist nearly completely unchecked (and often thrive, in fact), and so I feel the need to be one of the few people to “check” them.
Anyone else coming up to me who’s making it clear they’re just trying to fuck me can eat a dick for all I care. Do that in a place where it’s appropriate, not when I’m out having fun with friends, or god forbid literally on a date with another woman. Want to flirt with me anyway? Well you’ll have much better luck doing it in a way that isn’t sexualizing me. Compliment how I did my hair that day, how my outfit comes together, or something I did that you feel is commendable (and don’t give off that “I really wanna fuck you so I’m gonna compliment you until you say you like me back” body language while doing it; that’s not much better). Or y’know, just be friendly and polite and start a normal conversation with me and get to know me. You’ll get a nice response with warmth and friendliness (unless I’m in a bad mood or in a rush, but in that case it’s really more of a “sorry, I don’t have time to talk right now” kinda thing). If I can tell you’re flirting, I’ll politely let you down by saying I’m not interested in men. Call my ass big and allude to how much that turns you on and you’ll get a stone cold bitch who wants nothing to do with you.
Is it treating you like a sexual object to strike up a conversation? If they’re objectifying you, that’s one thing. Are they literally coming up to you and saying “Hey, wanna hook up?” Or do you consider it sexualization every time a man says hi?
Dating functions are one thing, but arguably only a small portion of dating activity takes place at those or begins from an interaction at one. And dating apps are notoriously toxic. The thing about genuine love is that it doesn’t happen when you mean it to. It’s unrealistic to expect to find it at those type of events. If it happens at all, it’s more likely to emerge organically. A chance encounter that turns into a coffee that turns into dinner that turns into three years and counting.
But if saying hi to that stranger with the cool style is inherently misogynistic, then how many chance encounters that would have had potential will be missed? That seems like a sad world, where everyone is isolated and no one is meeting the people who would be right for them because no one is talking or even beginning to get to know each other. And it seems like that’s the world we’re already living in.
Maybe I don’t quite get it, because I don’t understand flirting. I wouldn’t know how to do it if I set an intention to. I don’t really think about interactions as flirting. If I did I would just get nervous and awkward, and unable to think of anything to say. But retrospectively, there may have been times when I was trying to be friendly and outgoing that people thought I was flirting. I’m not really sure what counts as what. So should I have rbf all the time to avoid confusion?
If I’m interested in someone romantically, my first instinct isn’t to “flirt,” whatever it means. It’s more like “Can I learn her name? What can I learn about her personality? I wonder what she likes? Will she talk to me for long enough to develop a connection? How can I get to know her without sounding nosy?” In fact, when I really like someone I get so shy that she probably thinks I’m being standoffish.
The reverse is true too. I’ve thought someone was interested in me before, only to find out that she was just being friendly or had a bubbly personality. And likewise there have apparently been times when someone was dropping hints and they went right over my head. Clearly I don’t know “the code.”
And besides, how does one get consent to flirt? Do you literally say, “Hi, can I flirt with you?” I don’t know much about socializing, but I’m pretty sure that’s not how most people would do it, and it would come off as painfully awkward and cringe for everyone involved. What exactly are the logistics for requesting clearance to exchange lighthearted pleasantries in order to gauge whether someone might be interested in continuing the conversation? These things don’t come intuitively to me.
No, of course striking up a normal conversation is fine, I’m not gonna be mad at literally anyone for doing that; gender aside. Here’s a non-exhaustive list of some behaviors I have a problem with: coming up to me while clearly unable to keep your eyes off my body, using some shitty sexualizing pick-up line, saying something like “you’re hot” or “damn girl, you’ve got it going”, making comments solely about my inherited physical appearance (i.e. “nice ass”), alluding to how horny my body is making you, that kind of stuff. If someone comes up to me and gives me a genuine compliment (i.e. I love the way you did your hair, that outfit comes together really well, you did a really great job on [X thing they witnessed me do]), I’m not gonna go out of my way to check their ego.
Yeah, and if someone comes up to me and actually tries to get to know me as a real, genuine human being, then that’s perfectly fine. If they make it clear they’re interested in me, then I’ll let them down gently, but getting to know someone in and of itself is not necessarily flirting (and I prefer not to imagine that anyone who strikes up a random conversation with me is in it for sex). Flirting, by definition, is acting in a way that shows you have sexual interest in the other person. To be honest, I’m not very comfortable in the idea that someone who hasn’t even asked my name has a sexual interest in me, but I’m not the type to engage in one night stands, either. I much prefer someone actually makes an effort to learn what I’m like before they express that interest.
You are not the problem, I promise. I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding here of what kind of flirting I’m talking about, and how exactly it’s upsetting. Let me provide an anecdote: I’m shopping for my weekly groceries, trying to just make my way through the store and check out. I’m approached by a guy who clearly can’t keep his eyes off of me who makes some dirty joke about the contents of my cart. “You’re hot as fuck, you know that?”. That’s the kind of shit that ruins my day. I’m just out there trying to buy a fucking loaf of bread, not trying to catch a one night stand with some guy who thinks of me as nothing more than a means to satisfy his obvious desires.
Start a conversation. Make a genuine compliment, or express lighthearted interest. See if it’s reciprocated. Reciprocation is the key there. Flirting is very different for lesbians, so I don’t think I’m the girl to ask for advice here, as I’ll never reciprocate flirting with a man anyway. For me, as a lesbian? Telling if there is mutual interest can often be done through eye contact and body language alone. Regardless, I’d throw out a light compliment about something I genuinely like about her (that she had agency in choosing, as that’s much more flattering than gawking about someone’s physical appearance), and see what kind of response I get. It’s an easy way to test the waters. If her tone, body language, eye contact, and response are playful, I know I can keep going. It’s fine to casually compliment someone’s appearance if they express mutual interest, but do so in a respectful way (i.e. no “wow, you have a nice rack”). I also don’t flirt purely for the sake of flirting. I interlace it into conversation, as if I’m interested in someone, I actually want to get to know her before continuing.
I see. It sounds like some of the men you’ve encountered are pigs, and I can see how putting up with that could make someone cynical. I’m sorry that you go through that.
I overthink a lot because I don’t want to come off that way. I guess I can’t quite imagine the depravity that’s out there, so when I hear people talk about it my mind fills in a placeholder of something more innocuous, and then I worry that the things I thought were innocuous were actually perceived as worse. And that can be kinda paralyzing when I both don’t want to be perceived as a pig and I also don’t want to ruin someone’s day.
I’d still be afraid to compliment someone’s hair or outfit though. You seem to have a rational view, but there have definitely been times when it seemed like people were assuming the worst about me and reacting as if I had said something as depraved as the things you described. It’s not a good feeling. I don’t want to be painted with the same brush.
These days I don’t make an effort to meet people anymore. I’ve learned to accept my loneliness. The dating scene is too hostile, and I was always nervous and awkward about it to begin with. Rejection was always painful, but now it seems to come with extra layers of insult and derision.
I was never really a catch anyway. If there’s anything even remotely likeable about me, someone else does it better, guaranteed. So why should I waste anyone’s time?
Plus, judging solely from most of the discourse online, it seems like women don’t want to be approached at all. So I don’t even try anymore. Like, if she would literally rather encounter a bear in the woods than talk to me, then I’ll just pretend I don’t see her. I just tell myself that I’m expressing my affection by ignoring everyone I’m potentially interested in. Even if I think she’s sending signals, with body language, eye contact, tone, or whatever else, I wouldn’t trust my perception. I would assume I’m misreading the situation, because that’s easier to cope with than risking putting myself out there and being wrong.
Also, wanna just apologize, I was a lot more defensive than I needed to be because there was a misunderstanding of what I meant. I’m so used to misogyny being perpetuated that I immediately get defensive when I feel like that’s what’s happening. I could have been more clear in my initial comment about what I meant, and a bit less aggressive in my follow-up. I just get heated about these topics, and I think we both made some assumptions about what the other meant that caused a little bit of a misunderstanding.
It’s really more of a matter of the fact that the type of men that do approach me when I’d otherwise want to be left alone are a problem. I understand that there are plenty of guys who aren’t like that, but I experience a disproportionately large amount of…not so great men. It’s usually incredibly easy to tell if someone is genuinely complimenting me, or if they’re just trying to get in my pants there. There are so many micro expressions that give it away. And to be frank, if someone seemed nervous and approached me respectfully, I’d usually be quite nice in return, granted that they don’t check an item off my list of no-nos. It’s not men who have good intentions that piss me off, and I realized after posting that initial comment that this post is in a community that doesn’t have much of the same context I’m used to. If I posted that in a women’s space (which is usually where I’m found), other women would know exactly who I’m talking about without me having to clarify.
I think there’s a lot to be said about the issue of overthinking in the way you seem to be. The real enemy here is toxic masculinity that pushes a misogynistic agenda, it isn’t just men. It’s a specific social construct that is used to indoctrinate men. I feel bad for those who feel as if simply the act of being a man is something to be ashamed of. You can be a man and be a good person; the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I do, despite my ranting, know good men that I talk with regularly and get along with just fine. And someone approaching me with more wholesome intentions is not gonna get the horns, so to speak.
I do want to bring one thing up though. As a woman, it is fatiguing to have misogynistic assholes come up to you out of the blue. And the fact that it happens as often as it does makes it harder to feel optimistic about being approached by a man. There is a massive problem currently with gender division/exclusion. It’s based upon the fact that humans tend to generalize people so much. That’s motivated by our experiences, as our brains love to search for patterns in behaviors. Which means that when we experience one negative thing a lot, it becomes easy to “throw out the baby with the bathwater”, so to speak. I have no intention of leaving men as a whole out to dry, but I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of hostility there. I think the problem that we have, perhaps one of the biggest problems with society right now, is a lack of empathy. Which, if you’ve caught on, is exactly what toxic masculinity pushes. But women’s exposure to that toxic masculinity pushes it, too. We need some serious societal change to happen in order to even begin fixing these problems. And that change isn’t just going to come from women. It has to come from men who understand the atrocity of misogyny and toxic masculinity, too. After all, if men keep pushing for toxic masculinity, and keep accepting it, then the problem will only continue to get worse.
I also want to make myself clear: if you choose to compliment a woman, like by complimenting her hair, for instance, body language is incredibly important. The difference between someone who is genuinely complimenting me and someone who is trying to get in my pants is usually very obvious. And I think it’s very important not to simply make a show of complimenting a woman, regardless of what you say. What I mean by this is, have a normal conversation with her. Ask her (appropriate) things about herself, get to know her, compliment the things that matter in ways that show you see her as a person, and do so as part of a larger conversation (maybe it’s just me, but I don’t consider a conversation “normal” if someone is doing nothing but showering me in compliments; that feels weird, even if they’re genuine). You’ll have a much better chance of getting asked for coffee (or her accepting your request) if she feels like you care about her as a person. Now, I don’t have advice for one night stands, I just don’t do that and I don’t know how to play that game at all. I mean, technically, I do as a lesbian, but we flirt very differently. But I have a feeling that you aren’t angling at that anyway.
Tbh, I understand feeling like “other people do it better than you”. But what matters to me is someone’s personality. It isn’t just “they’re so good at this thing or that”, it’s “wow, we really play off each other well and kinda just fit together”. I don’t just approach the most attractive woman in the room, for instance. I’m much more drawn to people who give off the vibes I like to be around, and I have a sneaking suspicion that isn’t just a lesbian thing. Which is exactly why I prefer to just get to know someone rather than play the game of who can compliment the other person more. Romantic interest for me has very little to do with looks, or unique skills, or whatever shallow thing people might brag about themselves. It has much more to do with who a person is inside, and if that fits my own personality well. What kinds of things do they like? What kinds of opinions do they have? Where do they take the conversation, and how do they play off what I say? I don’t know if I’m in the minority there, but for me, that means anyone can really be an option. Someone doesn’t need to be the best at something, they just need to be themselves, and when they are, that tells me if we’d work.
I don’t have advice for you on how to get out there and meet people, because my main way of doing that is all queer-oriented activities. It’s much easier to find my people when I’m literally surrounded by them. But I guess, the same would apply to hobby activities? You can meet likeminded people who you have a better chance of getting along with just by doing something you both like together. What I’d caution against doing is going up to random people in a bar (unless you’re looking for a one night stand? Idk the rules there, but I mean, I’m not in that game to begin with) or on the street, or in any place where people are just running errands or getting through their day. People are much more open to talking with others when they’re doing something they’re passionate about (and you’re also interested in).
Anyway, TL;DR: I don’t mean to imply that all men are like the ones that come up to me and make me uncomfortable. There are some real societal issues pushing the divide between genders, one of great prominence being toxic masculinity (and by extension misogyny). I don’t really have a solution to that problem, so I cope with it in the best way I can for my own mental health. It’s easy to fall into the trap of feeling ashamed of your own gender, and I get that, but it’s not you that’s the problem. And I don’t think that it’s pointless to try meeting new people, it’s just harder these days to do that organically, so you’ve gotta find ways to find other likeminded people who are looking to meet others.