Republicans are fascists
But democrats are crypto-fascists
Ok thanks Che. Good work.
…and third parties can’t win under FPTP
Doesn’t stop them from absorbing non-republican votes every year tho.
Damn maybe they should start trying to get votes instead of thinking “I’m not the other guy” will somehow work this time.
They absolutely should, but also, “I’m not a raging, shortsighted, diplomatically inept and administratively incompetent asset for whoever manages to stroke my narcissist ego best” should be enough of an argument to… well, vote against “the other guy” at the federal level where that influence can do a lot of damage. The status quo sucks, but the regressive alternative is worse.
Work to transform their politics where there is less on the line: push for progressive candidates in primaries, local politics, rally resistance against neo-liberal* bullshit that uses social progress as a fig leaf while bowing to corporate donors.
* By this, I mean the branch of liberal thought that treats companies as people and economic regulations as curtailing their liberties, with the result we’re all aware of.
I vote independent every time I go to the ballot box, including primaries. Been doing so since I turned 18 in 2013 and ya’ll seemed to have no issues with that in 2020 when the walking corpse won alongside a cop. Nobody that registers for the DNC ticket that I could vote for in my state (Missouri) has been worth supporting especially since they will openly state they’re “an old school conservative” (legit a line from one dem’s ad campaign I remember watching in 2024). I’m currently pretty involved with my chosen leftist parties in their local events and everyone there feels the same.
Damn, Missouri. That sucks. Good luck to you.
ya’ll seemed to have no issues with that in 2020 when the walking corpse won alongside a cop
When the spoiler effect doesn’t fuck up the result, nobody complains about the spoiler effect. Is that so surprising?
I’m currently pretty involved with my chosen leftist parties in their local events and everyone there feels the same.
I genuinely wish you success. I hate the Democrats less than I hate the Republicans, but that doesn’t mean I don’t hate them.
Yeah they don’t complain. Instead they just tell leftists “see we didn’t need ya’ll after all!! We shouldn’t waste time trying to win you over”. Somehow leftists are both too few in number to bother winning over, but enough in number to swing an election when Dems lose.
Instead they just tell leftists “see we didn’t need ya’ll after all!! We shouldn’t waste time trying to win you over”
I’ve never heard or seen that, but that might just be the bubble phenomenon, so I’ll take your word for it. And I agree, that’s fucking stupid. For one, if I narrowly made it, I’d want to increase my margin for the next time. Secondly, it probably overlooks all the leftists that did compromise to avoid the greater evil, so “we didn’t need ya’ll” is a good way to discount their value and discourage future cooperation.
Somehow leftists are both too few in number to bother winning over
I suspect for the party leadership, it’s more of a “too expensive to win over” thing.
but enough in number to swing an election when Dems lose
I also suspect that the lion’s share of the non-voters aren’t even leftists, or at least not consciously, but idiots in the original Ancient Greek sense: People only concerned with their own business instead of participating in the matters of the polis (= politics). It’s obviously hard to tell where they would lean if they did participate, but abstaining entirely is irresponsible, second only to actually voting for the people that have been quite blunt and open about their intention to take away your vote.
I still maintain that the priority of damage control should scale with the stakes and consciously accepting the risk of the objectively worse outcome is short-sighted. I understand and appreciate the signalling value of a third-party vote, and I definitely agree that the blame for their defeat should be on the Dems for being so bloody useless. I just disagree that its long-term contribution to shifting the political balance outweighs the short-term destructive effects of a potential R victory at the federal level, particularly the last few elections.
But it’s a lot better than complacency. You’ve got a spine and you’re showing it, and I respect that. Here’s to hoping that all my concerns end up being wrong - I’d rather be a pessimist than a realist.
Correction: Democrats can’t win without convincing everyone that accepting a politician who’s worse than Bush is the only way to stop the next Trump
Worse than Bush? Really.
Undeniably since the next Democratic candidate will be Gavin Newsom yes it will be significantly worse than Bush. I’ll take it a step further, a potential Newsom presidency will be almost as bad as Trumps first term. He will openly backstab queer people, support endless wars, fund genocide, and do literally nothing without Republican approval but despite doing everything they ask the right wing media will constantly smear him thus making him deeply unpopular amongst the “moderate Republicans” that the DNC cares more about than progressives.
Wow he loves the genoside too? Looks like we’ll get more genocide then.
Lucky you.
Green party: can’t win.
I’m not even sure if they made it on the ballot in all 50 states this last time.
The American population can’t win with either Republicans or Democrats
Well, except that one of them does. Every time.
The difference between serious leftists and performative leftists on Lemmy is that serious leftists use Lemmy to talk to voters. Performative leftists use Lemmy to talk to politicians.
Perfectly stated. If you have a problem with a politician’s messaging, that’s fine and normal, but that’s a conversation to have with that politician and their staff. As I put it in another thread, it’s my dentist’s job to encourage responsible dental hygiene, but if I don’t brush it’s my teeth that rot.
Democrats care about messaging (especially to centrists and republicans). Leftists care about actions. Leftists tend to hate imperialist action with a progressive hashtag more vocally because it’s just as deadly and twice as deceitful.
Assuming the metaphor is that western society is a mouth of teeth, it was full of rot before we were born. Republicans want to eat more candy. Democrats want to eat the same amount of candy republicans ate 4 years ago but brush every couple years at the voting booth in the hopes that the rot gets brushed away. Leftists want the rotten teeth pulled since it’s starting to affect the entire system now and will soon
destroy the worldcause heart disease if action isn’t taken.
Democrats can’t win without ceasing to support the genocide of Palestinians.
Centrists will interpret this as wanting republicans to win instead of wanting democrats to change.
Because they don’t want democrats to change.
So you want trump to win? /s
You say that but op has said that seriously before
Independents can’t win without a base.
seems the democrats can’t win with a base. guess they are going to have to change their position…
I don’t care if independents win or if the democrats start to become slightly less evil. But for fuck’s sake, the democrats victory should be contingent upon them pulling support for Israel. And they should have no problem doing that. Anything short of that is horrifying.
I don’t care how the Democrats win, I just want Trump to lose. I’m scared.
I get that. I think we all are.
Beep beep beep inconvenient fact detected beep beep beep
Interesting question; I don’t think it’s a shiboleth though because the content matters. I really think folks don’t understand, and I say what I say because I want them to understand (obviously, I’m spilling way too much ink and tearing out way too much of my hair talking about this for it to just be a thing one says to signal having the right opinions or whatever).
But the Democrats aren’t on Lemmy, so saying it on Lemmy isn’t helping them understand
I want you to understand! Folks who say “it’s the voters fault that the democrats lose, vote blue no matter who”
I want people like you to understand why, because y’all say dumb shit like “you want trump to win” and I want you to stop.
The democrats know. I don’t gotta tell them. They just suppressed that report, and I am sure this issue would be well covered. https://apnews.com/article/democrats-2024-election-review-biden-harris-martin-a84dfae267090ad83cd8f70b731f439d
You’re saying that report says supporting Israel lost the election for the Democrats. I don’t believe you. The article doesn’t say it, and I don’t have very much faith in Democrat analysts. It seems like you trust them to accurately assess the situation and come to reasonable conclusions. I don’t! They’re out of touch rich white people. You should stop trusting the Democrats’ competence so much.
So I should trust them more with power because they’re less competent and more out of touch than I think? Hahaha
FWIW I don’t expect the report says supporting Israel is the main or only factor, but there’s no way this report is not going to address the issue, if for no other reason than the huuuuge swing in Dearborn.
I hate both sides. I hate the Democrats and the non voters. And the people whose words are making more non voters. I think all those groups are helping Trump and ICE
There we go. We now return you to your previously selected fascism, already in progress.
Fascism for thee, palestinians, but not for me? We should accept conducing genocide abroad as the cost of having less fascism here?
How about the democrats just be minimally acceptable human beings? No? No it’s the voters fault for not voting for the slightly less demonic demons. All the stuff going on domestically is terrible but it’s a drop in the bucket of all the terrible shit the democrats and republicans are both happy to do. You think the handful of protesters murdered by ICE are bad? You think the dozens killed in their detention camps are bad? Well you’re god damn right they are…and you’ll be really pissed when you hear about the tens of thousands ruthlessly slaughtered in Gaza!
I’m sorry, is not supporting a genocide just too much to ask? If you say “yes!” think about what that means. If you say “no!” then what the hell are you talking about, shilling for those ghouls?
Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
Okay? We on the same page so far?
(We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
You can stop pretending that you think it’s bad.
I think the two party system is bad, but I don’t want my family to die. Lemmy users said those two opinions are opposites
I think genocide is bad. People who love genocide more than anything will NEVER admit unprompted that democrats have no business supporting it.
No matter what it means for their families. Maybe if centrists has quelled their bloodlust for a few months, we wouldn’t be here.
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or B. not vote for the democratic party.
Same page so far.
Not voting at all means a MAGA vote has more influence than your non-vote.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
They tend to be the ones actively cheering for it (at least for anyone who isn’t as white as they like).
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
They are morally superior, you’re perfectly fine with the deaths of countless Palestinians as long as it means you and yours stay comfortable
Centrists were fine with either outcome as long as no one had the option of an anti-genocide candidate.
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
I guess the main disagreement here is that voting for the Democrats is somehow voting for a genocide. Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide? It’s not like they were involved in starting the conflict. Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
I guess you’re right though that I am a privileged European that are not really that impacted by the state of the world yet. Though it would have been nice with continued stability in the western world instead of a breakdown of our cross continental alliance. There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu?
Which third party are you advocating?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
Maybe you should go back to grade school math.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
These tree sloths you’re arguing with aren’t worth it. The DO NOT understand incremental progress, they’d rather cross their arms, watch it all burn down and then snugly say “See? Told ya so”.
Fuck every single one of them for contributing to Trump’s victory.
You stand for absolutely nothing, you deserve Trump and worse
You’d rather cross your arms, watch it all burn down and then smugly* say “well it’s the best we could do.”
All I want is for the democrats to even say they’re going to make incremental progress, to pretend they’re interested in progress at all, and they won’t do that. Maybe if they’re scared enough of continuing to lose, they will. I’m not counting on it.
So what incremental progress are you talking about?
Maybe incremental progress from the 16k people in ICE detention when biden took over from Trump 1 would not look like 40k in ICE detention when he left…idk? Maybe Biden could have made incremental progress by not providing Israel with at least $18 billion more in military aid to support the genocide than trump 1 did?
The smallest increment of progress is ceasing military aid to israel to support its genocide of Palestinians. That would be incremental. From there maybe we could see aid to palestine, idk. Fuck you for voting for genocide and then saying I’m the bad guy. There’s no “oh they killed 20,000 children last year, and this year they only killed 18,000, that’s incremental progress we should be proud of!”
Sir, this is a Wendy’s and I’m Canadian. I’m on the sidelines watching the mouth breathing neighbors machine-gun their own feet off.
Hillary sure nailed it with the basket of deplorables comment, but it seemingly applies to the entire body politic.
For the record though: I absolutely would have voted dem versus abstaining. At home I have consistently voted for progressive leftist parties. Last time around I picked Carney. BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE ALTERNATIVE REPRESENTED. So far I don’t regret my choice. I wonder if any of you who stayed home and avoided being a part of the solution regret yours.
Lol, you’re the one saying “fuck those people who are so smug, not voting for the democrats, even if they support genocide; those people just want to watch the world burn” … Why are you "sir this is a Wendys"ing me??
I’m serious though, what is the incremental positive change you’re talking about here? I want incremental progress. I want a solution to be a part of. I just think it’s delusional to think that the democrats as they are are a solution.
I’m from CT; CT was never going to send delegates to vote for trump. All my vote would do is affirm that one more person is comfortable enough with the democrats ongoing support for the genocide of palestinians to vote for them. I’m never going to regret not voting for funding genocide.
You can engage in strategic voting as you see fit, I’m being strategic too. I’m withholding my vote, and I’m not the only one. The Democrats have gotten a pretty clear signal on this: Dearborn Michigan was a sore loss for them and it was lost because arab and muslim democrats simply didn’t show up to vote for harris due to her continued support for the genocide of palestinians (will they do anything about it, I don’t know. it seems they’re trying to suppress their own post-mortem on this https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/dec/18/democrats-2024-election-autopsy - my guess is they’ll stick to their usual “how can we be as far right as possible while still picking up just enough votes to beat the republicans?”).
And hey, that you’re canadian provides an opportunity to show what I mean. Carney won in a landslide…you’re sure you couldn’t have done more good by staying home or voting NDP or green or whatever and making the liberals bite their nails a little harder? make them think that they actually should be more progressive? Like…the right-winger lost his seat (great, hilarious), and the NDP lost so hard they lost their full status or something, right? Fair enough if you live in a place that it was a close race with the conservatives, but if not, I’m not sure your vote for carney was really all that strategic. Or maybe there’s something there I don’t understand, please feel free to let me know if that’s a terrible example for some reason.
you’re sure you couldn’t have done more good by staying home or voting NDP or green or whatever and making the liberals bite their nails a little harder?
I voted Carney. I’m not the person you’re replying to, but I think standing clearly against the principles of the Conservatives was what was most important. I think that’s the clearest message and an important one to send at the time.
Fair; I don’t have a finger on the pulse in Canada, if there’s a risk that the principles of the conservatives are eclipsing human decency in prevalence, then send your message! I expect you’d send the same message by voting for whoever you want to vote for (assuming you’d prefer to vote NDP or Green or whatever), but again, I’m not trying to shame anybody for voting for democrats. If you’re not a fascist, vote your heart out for whatever reason you like. That’s great. Of course I hope the democrats change, but if they don’t change, the best result of that would be they win by the skin of their teeth and are terrified enough that they may change next time. In the US, Donald trump got fewer votes in 2024 than he did in 2020; he’s way less popular even in absolute terms despite a larger voting population. The democrats are WAY WAY WAY less popular than they were in 2020. And I hope they take something constructive from that. I want them to win.
I just object to being told I’m a bad person for having any standards whatsoever that would stop me from voting for someone (not supporting genocide is a pretty low bar to clear and democrats are lying on the floor to smash their face into it).
I live in a deep red state and voted third party. I don’t regret it one bit and will do so again next time.
I wonder if any of you who stayed home and avoided being a part of the solution regret yours.
I really don’t know how to get this through your heads. Trump could march me personally into a gas chamber and I still wouldn’t regret my third party vote. If the reason I die is because I was too unwilling to support genocide, then I will die proudly. I did not adopt my position on this idly, on some lark, with no thought of what it could mean.
If we collectively accepted that genocide was not an acceptable option, there would be no problem, because there’d be now way to avoid the pressure of such a movement. But instead, we have people like you trying to assert that genocide is somehow acceptable and demanding absolute, unconditional support for the democrats, and predictably failing.
What kind of world would we be living in if everyone in history allowed themselves to be limited by what the system (what the people in power) said was possible? We’d be living under a monarchy with chattel slavery.
the Democrats have been incrementally progressing the Palestinian genocide, which is what they are objecting to.
If only it was as incremental as their progress on the policies they actually ran on.
Amen. Hell, I wouldn’t even say it’s incremental. Biden provided at least 18 billion more than trump 1.
Sloths can’t poop without leaving the tree
Same, tbh
…wait, really? I figured they’d just hang and let it plop.
No and it’s dangerous too, as predators wait for them on the ground to chomp on them. So they only poop once a week.
predators wait for them
They wait for a sloth? On the ground? For it to crawl down to take a dump?
That entire foodchain is all kinds of janked up.
The poop drop is a signal that locates the large slow moving animal for predators. They can’t clear the area faster than a jaguar arrives to investigate.
So they wait until it looks safe, climb down and put their shit at the base of a tree and climb back up.
But jaguars who have located a sloth also know they can wait for it to come to them. Which is why sloths try not to be located.
And over half of sloth deaths are “being eaten while going to poop”.
Intelligent design my ass.
They are already working on convincing themselves again that the worst option is somehow preferable to any other option that is not perfect
Yep
