Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn’t want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn’t stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
I didn’t want genocide. I told you already. I felt horrible when you said I did. When you said it was my fault my family are going to be murdered. I’m not a Democrat. I think both sides are awful, the Democrats and the non voters.
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or
B. not vote for the democratic party.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
Is it? Were the dems about to stop supplying bombs to Israel? Boy, news to me, I would’ve been pretty energized to work to help the dems win if I had known! You can see my confusion, given that Biden gave them an extra 18 billion and kamala told anti-genocide protesters to shut up. Is there like…any reason to think that things would have been different for palestinians, or is it just like…a vibes thing? …like the cheering?
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
I guess the main disagreement here is that voting for the Democrats is somehow voting for a genocide. Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide? It’s not like they were involved in starting the conflict. Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
I guess you’re right though that I am a privileged European that are not really that impacted by the state of the world yet. Though it would have been nice with continued stability in the western world instead of a breakdown of our cross continental alliance. There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide?
Even someone whose mind had turned to pudding like Biden’s had could tell that what netanyahu was doing was and is genocide. The Leahy law is crystal clear on the subject. Biden broke the law to sell weapons for an ongoing genocide.
Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
They are responsible for their own actions. Playing arms dealer for a genocide is reprehensible and they never should have done it.
There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
There’s nothing unsettling to you about genocide? Or is that just because under Biden, the genocide was limited to people who you prefer genocided?
If the democrats say “I will continue active military support for this genocide,” what is there disagreement about when I say “voting for the democrats is voting for a genocide”?
The genocide of Palestinians is being conducted with weapons given to them by the U.S., democrat and republican alike (in all likelihood significantly more given to them by democrats, if only because they had more time). It’s not that “Biden could have done more,” it’s that he could have not given them bombs to blow up Palestinians! He could have done less to enable genocide…ideally nothing? The democrats were and are unequivocal that the supply of arms to israel was and is a priority. They’re responsible because they directly enable israel. I’m not responsible for what the democrats and republicans do because I don’t do anything to support them.
And look, I’m not judging folks who vote for the democrats, we’re all scared, fascism is fucked, maybe they can accept this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. I’m scared too…I also hate donald trump. I also hate ICE. I also think things were better for me and people I love under democrats (if it was better for “illegal” immigrants or palestinians, it’s a matter of degree and not kind - obama and biden also used ice to unjustifiably put human beings in concentration camps - in terms of ice detention biden was much worse than Trump 1). I don’t care if democratic voters acknowledge, admit, or accept that they vote for continued genocide of palestinians. They’re welcome to say “I think this is the best choice I can make, even though there’s lots I don’t like about it.” None of my business; please feel free to feel good about that. We could do with more feeling good in the world.
What I object to is their making these posts online saying I’m a bad person for not showing up to vote for the democrats; for not showing up to vote for continued genocide of Palestinians. Saying that I’m supporting fascism, that I’m the problem. Don’t put that on me. The democrats could change at any time; it’s their choice to make a vote for them a vote for genocide.
Fair. You are right that the “lesser of two evils” situation is fucking bullshit. To be fair I also think you are also right that a lot of Democrats are on Israels side… but I also think that the Democrats is more splintered internally. Like I would have a hard time seeing any Replibicans joining a free Palestine protest, but I’m sure it’s a lot more popular among Democrat voters.
I also wish that the US, and more countries around the world, would sanction Israel, and they should have done so long ago.
I do not agree that sitting out is the right choice though, and when the choice is between Trump and literally anyone else I think that the lesser evil is clear. You even say yourself that things were better for you before Trump, and I absolutely think that Trump is the worst choice for Palestine. I mean didn’t he literally attack Kamala during the campaign for even a weak protest against Netanyahu? Not to mention him straight up joining Israel in the war against Iran.
I agree the democrats are splintered internally. i think they need to experience a crisis and hopefully some decent people can come out on top. I honestly couldn’t believe Trump 1 wasn’t a sufficient crisis…the ghouls at the top are resilient I guess…
Again, I’m not trying to be a jerk, and poo-poo your decision (or…hypothetical decision I guess, given that you don’t vote in teh US) to vote for democrats, but I think asking this may help you see what I’m talking about if you don’t: you wish the government would do something about palestine but will vote for them even if they don’t do something…so what good are your wishes?
I think it’s a bit silly to imagine Kamala wouldn’t have invaded Iran, she was vocally hawkish about Iran; she was always going on about how Iran was America’s greatest adversary and must be stopped at all costs and it would be her top priority. Oh she’s singing a different tune now, of course, but look for what she was saying in 2024.
Okay, I slept on it, and I think this may help explain why I think it’s ludicrous to blame individual voters for not choosing the “lesser of two evils” when each of the “evils” is itself a moral agent. I’m sure you’ll find this analogy doesn’t fit your mental model, but it fits mine very well so if you’re trying to understand where folks like me are coming from (and I think you are), see if you can try it on for size.
Sophie has two children, Eva (8) and Jan (11), with the same life-expectancy. Eva is a sweet child, very kind. Jan’s a brat…a bit of a jerk, with a cruel streak. Anyway, two Nazis with guns are arguing “I am Ralph and I wish to kill your younger daughter. This is Dirk and he wishes to kill your older boy. You may choose!” Sophie chooses for Ralph to kill Eva, or Sophie refuses to choose and Ralph loses patience before Dirk and, kills Eva. Later, the hand-wringing liberals berate Sophie for not choosing to have the older daughter killed “Jan is a worse person and has five fewer years left to live, Sophie! It’s OBVIOUSLY the worse choice. Why would you choose R? How COULD you? I hope you live with that for the rest of your days! If you had chosen D instead, things would have been better.”
Does that illustrate my point? It’s obviously the nazis that are to blame. If either of them was decent they’d die trying to kill as many on their own side as possible, or at the very least fuck off and leave everyone alone. Blaming Sophie is absurd whether she chose or didn’t choose. The hand-wringing liberals are probably right, Jan is probably a shithead (hearing his mom acquiesce to the murder of his sister probably won’t have helped), and voting D probably would have been a bit better. But like…shut the fuck up, hand-wringing liberals? Maybe no children needed to be murdered, actually, and maybe Sophie’s choice is not something to focus on here?
You’re acting as though Biden was just handing Netanyahu a loaded gun unprompted. This is not the case; there were preexisting trade deals and treaties with Israel that were being honored. That’s it. Democrats didn’t want to slap a close ally by shutting down an agreement that was already signed. It’s a shitty decision, but it’s more complex than just being all-in on genocide.
You’re acting as though Biden was just handing Netanyahu a loaded gun unprompted. This is not the case; there were preexisting trade deals and treaties with Israel that were being honored.
The Leahy Law means nothing to genocide apologists.
(we’ll leave aside for a minute the extra 18 billion that biden did hand over unprompted. The preexisting trade deals were for something on the order of 3.8 billion)
No it’s not more complicated. Don’t arm a genocide.
If your friend strapped on a swastika arm band and started goose-stepping around, you wouldn’t slap them? Slap them! Shame them! Stop them! (I’m not sure how to work into the analogy that your friend has already killed tens of thousands of children) In the analogy i guess you had a pre-existing arrangement to give the guy some of your old guns. But now he’s a genocidal maniac…you still give him the guns? Just don’t instead. Let him sue you or whatever. Like…obviously.
If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
Are you referring to that ICE had Detention facilities before Trump? Of course they did, but did Obama and Biden pack them so full of people that the conditions were near as bad? Not to mention ”Alligator Alcatraz” which is a clear escalation and seems very designed to be cruel.
What do you mean “of course they did”!? How is that not insane? How is that simply acceptable? Deportation is a civil process, there is absolutely no excuse for using armed goons to kidnap people at gunpoint and put them in concentration camps until their civil, non-criminal proceedings can be handled. That is fucking insane.
And YES Obama and biden packed them full. At the end of trump 1 there were 14k people in ice detention; at the end of biden there were 40k. The democrats don’t have the aesthetic of cruelty that you seem to object to so much, and I admit that it offends my aesthetic sensibilities as well, but comparing Obama 2, Trump 1, and Biden…apart from the aesthetic they’re all the same…actually Biden’s a lot worse. Trump 2 is obviously a crazy escalation (which the Democrats enabled by playing ball with this completely insane way of talking about and treating other human beings).
The US has always been rather strict with immigration so of course there has always been arrests of people being there illegally, and subsequently somewhere to detain them. It’s not like ICE is a new agency. Also, I believe a key nuance is that there were also an increase of immigrants following Trumps first term, which probably contributed a lot of the overcrowding result from that.
Could they have done better? Absolutely, but at least they’re not actively trying to make it worse.
It’s not only about the numbers, it’s about the methods and policies. Obama didn’t send ICE in to target specific cities of political opponents. He did not try to revoke the constitutional birthright citizenship. He did not push ICE to capture and deport people without due process. Under Obama, people didn’t feel like they had to have their passports on them out of fear of getting detained because they looked foreign.
I don’t see how that is relevant? They’re still both acting on behalf of the Republican party. It’s not like Trump personally is the problem, the whole party agrees with and enables everything he’s doing.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
Uhh…sorry, what? I don’t want the republicans to win, I want the democrats to change (and then win). They can just do that. That’s on them. I think I’ve been pretty goddamn clear about that.
The democrats are moral agents. We’re not choosing between an earthquake and a wildfire here. You’re acting as though there’s no way the democrats could ever do anything but fund a genocide. As if there’s simply no other thing they could possibly do.
It’s not that they’re not perfect, it’s because they’re fucking evil and actively support a genocide.
“Not perfect” jesus christ.
I’m not killing anybody, and I’m not going to kill people indirectly by voting for a party that’s perfectly happy to go conduct a genocide. I’m not making myself complicit in that, thanks. If you would have been happy voting for continuing US support for genocide in palestine because you thought it’d be a little better for us back home, that’s your business. But don’t tell me I’m causing death by refusing to support genocide in palestine. The democrats could stop.
The democrats weak statements would have been better than trump’s encouragement of genocide. They might have pushed back more as Ireal got worse and worse, and sentiment changed in the U.S. There are only two possibilities in U.S. elections, if you don’t pick the better one, you are responsible when the worse one wins. If the democrats won with a stable base, they could afford to move further left. They have to court the center right because there are too many idiotic ‘left’ minded Americans who don’t understand simple logic.
lol, you’re very sweet. When have the democrats moved left while in power (want to compare the new deal lol)? When have they pushed back on Israel? I wish you the best with your wishing that giving the democrats what they want will make them change for the better.
They are chasing donors right, not votes. That’s very well established, they get more votes when they move left.
Are the democrats not responsible for the genocide in Palestine? For providing the bombs and bullets that slaughter Palestinians? Does their responsibility not dwarf the responsibility of us on the left? And if not…how could they possibly be so stupid as to not do exactly as we wish, given how powerful we are? By the logic of “you’re responsible for the world as you find it and cannot wish for anyone to change, particularly if they’re more powerful than you” it is still their fault if we are so powerful, no? And why, in your mind, do they get to be unchangingly uncompromisingly pro genocide, but little old me, I must compromise my ludicrous anti genocide position?
Pre 2024, it wouldn’t be accurate at all to call Israel as a whole genocidal. Yes there were right wing politicians and fringe groups saying horrible things, and actions in Gaza an wb were terrible. But not genocide. So democrats didn’t have the chance to support genocidal Israel.
But this is all immaterial. The Democrats are clearly less bad than the trump for the people of Palestine, and on every other issue. So by not voting for them you effectively are making things worse for the people of Palestine. If you think you’re helping the long game, whatever. But understand that you are killing more Palestinians right now.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
I mean…my guy…it’s 1% as bad here as it is in Gaza. It would not be just fine. Just fine for you maybe.
They have to change. And It’s not some massive crazy line in the sand to not vote for people who actively support genocide. That’s like…the lowest possible bar to clear.
You do understand that Gaza is much worse off as well, right?
Like, it’s an absolute shitshow-dumpster-fire everywhere now. Not voting Harris was just insanity.
Like, I agree Gaza is and was a preventable tragedy in motion, and that Democrats messed up by not standing up for them. Agreed there. That said . . . We are all so fucked now, in part because of that talking point. Economically, Domestically, Militarily, Environmentally, Socially fucked - because people didn’t vote Democratic.
Y’know who changes the Democrats? Democrats. When there aren’t any in office they’re harder to change, right?
Gaza is not worse off than if the democrats changed, because if the democrats changed they’d win, as you point out yourself. And then things would be better for Gaza. I know you’re saying it’s worse off under Republicans than under Democrats…I’m skeptical it would be any different, but whatever, sure, maybe it’s 10% worse, idk. None of my business. I’m not voting for 10% less demonic when they could just stop being demons instead.
We’re not fucked because we didn’t vote for the Democrats, we’re fucked because the Democrats decided that continuing to support a genocide was more important than winning. No one should be asked to hold their nose that hard. Getting killed by Nazis would be better than actively helping and legitimizing the diet-nazis. The domestic horror is a rounding error. Feel free to throw in other points if you want too, medicare for all, meaningful environmental regulation, or whatever you want, maybe those would have been enough to make a difference, but I think Palestine is a pretty goddamn huge one. The point is they were not trying to be minimally palatable. I’m sure you know, but in case you didn’t, 2020 biden would have beaten 2024 trump…trump didn’t win (he did worse than he did in 2020), the democrats lost hard.
The party doesn’t cease to exist when it’s not in power; they don’t need to be in office to change. In fact, I’d say when they’re in office they’re impossible to change…why change when they’re winning? The party platform could say “Israel is conducting a genocide in Palestine and if you vote for us we’ll put a stop to US support for it.” They could announce that first thing in the morning if they gave a shit. I’d be banging on doors for them tomorrow afternoon, and I don’t think that’s an unusual position. Since they don’t give a shit about the genocide they have to carefully weigh whether it’s worthwhile, from the perspective of electoral success, to alienate zionists in order to win the support of people who do give a shit. Fine, I can’t control that. But I can control whether I vote for them or not; whether they actually have to consider that or not. Let them decide, but don’t look at me askance for not wanting to vote for more support for genocide.
If you voted for Harris, she was explicit, you were voting for continued support for genocide in Palestine. Maybe you can hold your nose and say “relative to trump, some slight reduction in horror there and significant reduction in horror here is enough for me to vote for continued horror there,” good for you, I 'aint judging, I don’t care. I can’t do that.
Well I’m not going to change your mind but I hope the three people who scroll by will consider trying to unfuck us all in the midterms in eight months.
Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
Okay? We on the same page so far?
You can stop pretending that you think it’s bad.
I think the two party system is bad, but I don’t want my family to die. Lemmy users said those two opinions are opposites
I think genocide is bad. People who love genocide more than anything will NEVER admit unprompted that democrats have no business supporting it.
No matter what it means for their families. Maybe if centrists has quelled their bloodlust for a few months, we wouldn’t be here.
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn’t want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn’t stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
What did the trans americans in my family do to deserve being put in a concentration camp?
Not a damn thing.
Your party only cared about netanyahu and ignored every single warning. They preferred netanyahu over your family.
The people who wanted genocide got their genocide. At home and abroad.
I didn’t want genocide. I told you already. I felt horrible when you said I did. When you said it was my fault my family are going to be murdered. I’m not a Democrat. I think both sides are awful, the Democrats and the non voters.
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or B. not vote for the democratic party.
Same page so far.
Not voting at all means a MAGA vote has more influence than your non-vote.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
They tend to be the ones actively cheering for it (at least for anyone who isn’t as white as they like).
I don’t care about cheering, I care about bombs that blow the bodies of children into little pieces.
Turns out MAGA is also empowering that too.
Is it? Were the dems about to stop supplying bombs to Israel? Boy, news to me, I would’ve been pretty energized to work to help the dems win if I had known! You can see my confusion, given that Biden gave them an extra 18 billion and kamala told anti-genocide protesters to shut up. Is there like…any reason to think that things would have been different for palestinians, or is it just like…a vibes thing? …like the cheering?
among the ones actively cheering for it, alongside every last centrist democrat.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
They are morally superior, you’re perfectly fine with the deaths of countless Palestinians as long as it means you and yours stay comfortable
Centrists were fine with either outcome as long as no one had the option of an anti-genocide candidate.
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
I guess the main disagreement here is that voting for the Democrats is somehow voting for a genocide. Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide? It’s not like they were involved in starting the conflict. Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
I guess you’re right though that I am a privileged European that are not really that impacted by the state of the world yet. Though it would have been nice with continued stability in the western world instead of a breakdown of our cross continental alliance. There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
Even someone whose mind had turned to pudding like Biden’s had could tell that what netanyahu was doing was and is genocide. The Leahy law is crystal clear on the subject. Biden broke the law to sell weapons for an ongoing genocide.
They are responsible for their own actions. Playing arms dealer for a genocide is reprehensible and they never should have done it.
There’s nothing unsettling to you about genocide? Or is that just because under Biden, the genocide was limited to people who you prefer genocided?
If the democrats say “I will continue active military support for this genocide,” what is there disagreement about when I say “voting for the democrats is voting for a genocide”?
The genocide of Palestinians is being conducted with weapons given to them by the U.S., democrat and republican alike (in all likelihood significantly more given to them by democrats, if only because they had more time). It’s not that “Biden could have done more,” it’s that he could have not given them bombs to blow up Palestinians! He could have done less to enable genocide…ideally nothing? The democrats were and are unequivocal that the supply of arms to israel was and is a priority. They’re responsible because they directly enable israel. I’m not responsible for what the democrats and republicans do because I don’t do anything to support them.
And look, I’m not judging folks who vote for the democrats, we’re all scared, fascism is fucked, maybe they can accept this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. I’m scared too…I also hate donald trump. I also hate ICE. I also think things were better for me and people I love under democrats (if it was better for “illegal” immigrants or palestinians, it’s a matter of degree and not kind - obama and biden also used ice to unjustifiably put human beings in concentration camps - in terms of ice detention biden was much worse than Trump 1). I don’t care if democratic voters acknowledge, admit, or accept that they vote for continued genocide of palestinians. They’re welcome to say “I think this is the best choice I can make, even though there’s lots I don’t like about it.” None of my business; please feel free to feel good about that. We could do with more feeling good in the world.
What I object to is their making these posts online saying I’m a bad person for not showing up to vote for the democrats; for not showing up to vote for continued genocide of Palestinians. Saying that I’m supporting fascism, that I’m the problem. Don’t put that on me. The democrats could change at any time; it’s their choice to make a vote for them a vote for genocide.
Fair. You are right that the “lesser of two evils” situation is fucking bullshit. To be fair I also think you are also right that a lot of Democrats are on Israels side… but I also think that the Democrats is more splintered internally. Like I would have a hard time seeing any Replibicans joining a free Palestine protest, but I’m sure it’s a lot more popular among Democrat voters.
I also wish that the US, and more countries around the world, would sanction Israel, and they should have done so long ago.
I do not agree that sitting out is the right choice though, and when the choice is between Trump and literally anyone else I think that the lesser evil is clear. You even say yourself that things were better for you before Trump, and I absolutely think that Trump is the worst choice for Palestine. I mean didn’t he literally attack Kamala during the campaign for even a weak protest against Netanyahu? Not to mention him straight up joining Israel in the war against Iran.
I agree the democrats are splintered internally. i think they need to experience a crisis and hopefully some decent people can come out on top. I honestly couldn’t believe Trump 1 wasn’t a sufficient crisis…the ghouls at the top are resilient I guess…
Again, I’m not trying to be a jerk, and poo-poo your decision (or…hypothetical decision I guess, given that you don’t vote in teh US) to vote for democrats, but I think asking this may help you see what I’m talking about if you don’t: you wish the government would do something about palestine but will vote for them even if they don’t do something…so what good are your wishes?
I think it’s a bit silly to imagine Kamala wouldn’t have invaded Iran, she was vocally hawkish about Iran; she was always going on about how Iran was America’s greatest adversary and must be stopped at all costs and it would be her top priority. Oh she’s singing a different tune now, of course, but look for what she was saying in 2024.
Okay, I slept on it, and I think this may help explain why I think it’s ludicrous to blame individual voters for not choosing the “lesser of two evils” when each of the “evils” is itself a moral agent. I’m sure you’ll find this analogy doesn’t fit your mental model, but it fits mine very well so if you’re trying to understand where folks like me are coming from (and I think you are), see if you can try it on for size.
Sophie has two children, Eva (8) and Jan (11), with the same life-expectancy. Eva is a sweet child, very kind. Jan’s a brat…a bit of a jerk, with a cruel streak. Anyway, two Nazis with guns are arguing “I am Ralph and I wish to kill your younger daughter. This is Dirk and he wishes to kill your older boy. You may choose!” Sophie chooses for Ralph to kill Eva, or Sophie refuses to choose and Ralph loses patience before Dirk and, kills Eva. Later, the hand-wringing liberals berate Sophie for not choosing to have the older daughter killed “Jan is a worse person and has five fewer years left to live, Sophie! It’s OBVIOUSLY the worse choice. Why would you choose R? How COULD you? I hope you live with that for the rest of your days! If you had chosen D instead, things would have been better.”
Does that illustrate my point? It’s obviously the nazis that are to blame. If either of them was decent they’d die trying to kill as many on their own side as possible, or at the very least fuck off and leave everyone alone. Blaming Sophie is absurd whether she chose or didn’t choose. The hand-wringing liberals are probably right, Jan is probably a shithead (hearing his mom acquiesce to the murder of his sister probably won’t have helped), and voting D probably would have been a bit better. But like…shut the fuck up, hand-wringing liberals? Maybe no children needed to be murdered, actually, and maybe Sophie’s choice is not something to focus on here?
You’re acting as though Biden was just handing Netanyahu a loaded gun unprompted. This is not the case; there were preexisting trade deals and treaties with Israel that were being honored. That’s it. Democrats didn’t want to slap a close ally by shutting down an agreement that was already signed. It’s a shitty decision, but it’s more complex than just being all-in on genocide.
The Leahy Law means nothing to genocide apologists.
(we’ll leave aside for a minute the extra 18 billion that biden did hand over unprompted. The preexisting trade deals were for something on the order of 3.8 billion)
No it’s not more complicated. Don’t arm a genocide.
If your friend strapped on a swastika arm band and started goose-stepping around, you wouldn’t slap them? Slap them! Shame them! Stop them! (I’m not sure how to work into the analogy that your friend has already killed tens of thousands of children) In the analogy i guess you had a pre-existing arrangement to give the guy some of your old guns. But now he’s a genocidal maniac…you still give him the guns? Just don’t instead. Let him sue you or whatever. Like…obviously.
Which third party are you advocating?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
You described both democrats and republicans and then moved the goalposts to hypotheticals about which genocidal party is worse.
the cages were built by Obama. biden used them. don’t delude yourself.
Are you referring to that ICE had Detention facilities before Trump? Of course they did, but did Obama and Biden pack them so full of people that the conditions were near as bad? Not to mention ”Alligator Alcatraz” which is a clear escalation and seems very designed to be cruel.
What do you mean “of course they did”!? How is that not insane? How is that simply acceptable? Deportation is a civil process, there is absolutely no excuse for using armed goons to kidnap people at gunpoint and put them in concentration camps until their civil, non-criminal proceedings can be handled. That is fucking insane.
And YES Obama and biden packed them full. At the end of trump 1 there were 14k people in ice detention; at the end of biden there were 40k. The democrats don’t have the aesthetic of cruelty that you seem to object to so much, and I admit that it offends my aesthetic sensibilities as well, but comparing Obama 2, Trump 1, and Biden…apart from the aesthetic they’re all the same…actually Biden’s a lot worse. Trump 2 is obviously a crazy escalation (which the Democrats enabled by playing ball with this completely insane way of talking about and treating other human beings).
thank you
The US has always been rather strict with immigration so of course there has always been arrests of people being there illegally, and subsequently somewhere to detain them. It’s not like ICE is a new agency. Also, I believe a key nuance is that there were also an increase of immigrants following Trumps first term, which probably contributed a lot of the overcrowding result from that.
Could they have done better? Absolutely, but at least they’re not actively trying to make it worse.
Obama was the deporter in chief. trump is still trying to catch up
It’s not only about the numbers, it’s about the methods and policies. Obama didn’t send ICE in to target specific cities of political opponents. He did not try to revoke the constitutional birthright citizenship. He did not push ICE to capture and deport people without due process. Under Obama, people didn’t feel like they had to have their passports on them out of fear of getting detained because they looked foreign.
I feel like you’re arguing in bad faith now tbh.
alligator alcatraz is ron desantis. he’s a governor.
I don’t see how that is relevant? They’re still both acting on behalf of the Republican party. It’s not like Trump personally is the problem, the whole party agrees with and enables everything he’s doing.
Maybe you should go back to grade school math.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
Uhh…sorry, what? I don’t want the republicans to win, I want the democrats to change (and then win). They can just do that. That’s on them. I think I’ve been pretty goddamn clear about that.
The democrats are moral agents. We’re not choosing between an earthquake and a wildfire here. You’re acting as though there’s no way the democrats could ever do anything but fund a genocide. As if there’s simply no other thing they could possibly do.
It’s not that they’re not perfect, it’s because they’re fucking evil and actively support a genocide.
“Not perfect” jesus christ.
I’m not killing anybody, and I’m not going to kill people indirectly by voting for a party that’s perfectly happy to go conduct a genocide. I’m not making myself complicit in that, thanks. If you would have been happy voting for continuing US support for genocide in palestine because you thought it’d be a little better for us back home, that’s your business. But don’t tell me I’m causing death by refusing to support genocide in palestine. The democrats could stop.
The democrats weak statements would have been better than trump’s encouragement of genocide. They might have pushed back more as Ireal got worse and worse, and sentiment changed in the U.S. There are only two possibilities in U.S. elections, if you don’t pick the better one, you are responsible when the worse one wins. If the democrats won with a stable base, they could afford to move further left. They have to court the center right because there are too many idiotic ‘left’ minded Americans who don’t understand simple logic.
lol, you’re very sweet. When have the democrats moved left while in power (want to compare the new deal lol)? When have they pushed back on Israel? I wish you the best with your wishing that giving the democrats what they want will make them change for the better.
They are chasing donors right, not votes. That’s very well established, they get more votes when they move left.
Are the democrats not responsible for the genocide in Palestine? For providing the bombs and bullets that slaughter Palestinians? Does their responsibility not dwarf the responsibility of us on the left? And if not…how could they possibly be so stupid as to not do exactly as we wish, given how powerful we are? By the logic of “you’re responsible for the world as you find it and cannot wish for anyone to change, particularly if they’re more powerful than you” it is still their fault if we are so powerful, no? And why, in your mind, do they get to be unchangingly uncompromisingly pro genocide, but little old me, I must compromise my ludicrous anti genocide position?
Pre 2024, it wouldn’t be accurate at all to call Israel as a whole genocidal. Yes there were right wing politicians and fringe groups saying horrible things, and actions in Gaza an wb were terrible. But not genocide. So democrats didn’t have the chance to support genocidal Israel.
But this is all immaterial. The Democrats are clearly less bad than the trump for the people of Palestine, and on every other issue. So by not voting for them you effectively are making things worse for the people of Palestine. If you think you’re helping the long game, whatever. But understand that you are killing more Palestinians right now.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
As far as people who always want to talk about genocide later (once it’s complete) are concerned.
I mean…my guy…it’s 1% as bad here as it is in Gaza. It would not be just fine. Just fine for you maybe.
They have to change. And It’s not some massive crazy line in the sand to not vote for people who actively support genocide. That’s like…the lowest possible bar to clear.
You do understand that Gaza is much worse off as well, right?
Like, it’s an absolute shitshow-dumpster-fire everywhere now. Not voting Harris was just insanity.
Like, I agree Gaza is and was a preventable tragedy in motion, and that Democrats messed up by not standing up for them. Agreed there. That said . . . We are all so fucked now, in part because of that talking point. Economically, Domestically, Militarily, Environmentally, Socially fucked - because people didn’t vote Democratic.
Y’know who changes the Democrats? Democrats. When there aren’t any in office they’re harder to change, right?
Gaza is not worse off than if the democrats changed, because if the democrats changed they’d win, as you point out yourself. And then things would be better for Gaza. I know you’re saying it’s worse off under Republicans than under Democrats…I’m skeptical it would be any different, but whatever, sure, maybe it’s 10% worse, idk. None of my business. I’m not voting for 10% less demonic when they could just stop being demons instead.
We’re not fucked because we didn’t vote for the Democrats, we’re fucked because the Democrats decided that continuing to support a genocide was more important than winning. No one should be asked to hold their nose that hard. Getting killed by Nazis would be better than actively helping and legitimizing the diet-nazis. The domestic horror is a rounding error. Feel free to throw in other points if you want too, medicare for all, meaningful environmental regulation, or whatever you want, maybe those would have been enough to make a difference, but I think Palestine is a pretty goddamn huge one. The point is they were not trying to be minimally palatable. I’m sure you know, but in case you didn’t, 2020 biden would have beaten 2024 trump…trump didn’t win (he did worse than he did in 2020), the democrats lost hard.
The party doesn’t cease to exist when it’s not in power; they don’t need to be in office to change. In fact, I’d say when they’re in office they’re impossible to change…why change when they’re winning? The party platform could say “Israel is conducting a genocide in Palestine and if you vote for us we’ll put a stop to US support for it.” They could announce that first thing in the morning if they gave a shit. I’d be banging on doors for them tomorrow afternoon, and I don’t think that’s an unusual position. Since they don’t give a shit about the genocide they have to carefully weigh whether it’s worthwhile, from the perspective of electoral success, to alienate zionists in order to win the support of people who do give a shit. Fine, I can’t control that. But I can control whether I vote for them or not; whether they actually have to consider that or not. Let them decide, but don’t look at me askance for not wanting to vote for more support for genocide.
If you voted for Harris, she was explicit, you were voting for continued support for genocide in Palestine. Maybe you can hold your nose and say “relative to trump, some slight reduction in horror there and significant reduction in horror here is enough for me to vote for continued horror there,” good for you, I 'aint judging, I don’t care. I can’t do that.
Well I’m not going to change your mind but I hope the three people who scroll by will consider trying to unfuck us all in the midterms in eight months.