Mary Wiseman is fat. [1][2] Not obese, but overweight. It’s okay to acknowledge reality and not make fun of her for it. I don’t see why we need to gaslight people about being overweight. We can all see she’s overweight. This is such a silly hill to die on.
She may have actually qualified as obese at times, as there’s an actual medical classification.
I don’t think that’s likely to be the case in that second photo you shared, she does have a heavy build in general, but there have been times since being on ST when she likely did qualify.
IIRC, obese is anything over a specific rage of BMI or BFP, whichever you use. So if a healthy BMI for you is 18-25 and you are 30 then you are obese.
I’m not a pro, so I’m not sure about the hard details, but the point I’m making is that obese isn’t a personal opinion of looks too fat. A person doesn’t necessarily even need to look it, but they could still qualify.
My SO looks fine at 30, but not much above that. I think they’re sitting at 28 currently.
To muddy the waters, being overweight exists somewhere between healthy and obese, and there isn’t a clear definition. So there is definitely subjectivity involved. But I think that when someone toes the line of obesity, they can absolutely be classified as overweight.
I can’t. My perceptions have been altered by the high prevalence of obesity in our society. I now have higher standards. She looks a little thicker than most people, but not in a way I’d been conscious of before today.
This is a good example of soulism. Something as basic about our perception of people as whether they’re fat changes based on our home culture. Ultimately, the quality of being fat is a social construct. Science can’t give us a hard cutoff, only culture can do that. Science can only give us degrees.
A naive realist would respond to this ambiguity by denying its existence and saying whatever they think is fat, is fat. A scientific realist would try to find an objective answer in science, perhaps using appealing to the authority of BMI, or looking for a more reliable measurement. A social constructivist would accept that there’s no answer. But a soulist would begin asking what definition of “fat” helps society the most, so we can make a conscious choice of what to believe. The soulist is the only one displaying true agency in how our perceptual world is created.
I like how that focuses on the desired outcomes. Research shows that health risks increase (on average) after a BMI of 25 (slightly more for women). So I would propose a soulism approach in which anyone over a BMI of 25 be considered overweight. That’s generally how medical guidelines categorise weight now.
Well then John Cena is overweight. In fact, he’s obese, with a BMI of 33.9. So BMI isn’t objective reality. And I think it’s useful only as a very rough guideline.
Now I want to question something that’s gone unsaid in this conversation so far. We started with the question “Is Tilly fat?” And now suddenly you’re talking about medicine and health. Is fatness purely a matter of health? I don’t think so. I think fatness touches beauty standards, body autonomy, culture, gender presentation, expression, and identity, and a lot more. I don’t think it’s just health.
And if it is, then Tilly isn’t fat, because she lives in the Federation where they have advanced medical technology. I don’t believe Tilly’s weight is a health concern in the same universe that has dermal regenerators in every first aid kit. I think her blood levels are all great, her physical fitness is within regulation, and her joints are all in perfect condition for her age. I assume that about every Starfleet Officer. I think they have the technology to make all that possible at any weight we’ve seen in the show.
Furthermore, I think Tilly could lose weight very easily if she wanted. Starfleet has synthetic alcohol that breaks down in the presence of adrenaline, I think meals to match an ideal nutritional profile regardless of your fitness goals and portion size are easy in comparison, given replicator technology. I think Tilly chooses her weight because she likes the way she looks and feels the way she is.
So, given all this, is Tilly fat? Well, I think that’s her choice. If we’ve controlled for health, then the biggest effect of the definition is her own comfort. So we should be asking her if she’d like to be called fat. Some people do, and that’s valid. Some people don’t, and that’s valid. I believe in technology and personal choice.
Well then John Cena is overweight. In fact, he’s obese, with a BMI of 33.9. So BMI isn’t objective reality. And I think it’s useful only as a very rough guideline.
BMI is a population level tool. There are individuals who are extremely muscular who can be in the obese range. I’m not seeking a perfect description - nor will ever such a description exist. If that is your standard then you are taking a postmodernist approach which is “everything is made up and the words don’t matter.” If up means down and the person in the discussion genuinely doesn’t care, there’s no real way to have a discussion after that.
We started with the question “Is Tilly fat?” And now suddenly you’re talking about medicine and health.
Because you raised the concept of soulism and utility. If we were to consider soulism and utility, I think using objective metrics make sense. I agree that there are many other frameworks we could use.
Humans view the world through their lenses of experience. Tolkien wisely remarked on creating fictional worlds that we should endeavour to change as little as possible compared to our world in order to suspend disbelief. When we do make changes, they should be meaningful, important for the story and world, and consistent. Unless Tilly’s weight is explicitly described as healthy and normal, and it is part of some new universe law and storyline, I don’t think we should be making any such assumptions. I think most people would balk at such a storyline and in-universe change. It would feel performative.
Mary Wiseman is fat. [1] [2] Not obese, but overweight. It’s okay to acknowledge reality and not make fun of her for it. I don’t see why we need to gaslight people about being overweight. We can all see she’s overweight. This is such a silly hill to die on.
She may have actually qualified as obese at times, as there’s an actual medical classification.
I don’t think that’s likely to be the case in that second photo you shared, she does have a heavy build in general, but there have been times since being on ST when she likely did qualify.
IIRC, obese is anything over a specific rage of BMI or BFP, whichever you use. So if a healthy BMI for you is 18-25 and you are 30 then you are obese.
I’m not a pro, so I’m not sure about the hard details, but the point I’m making is that obese isn’t a personal opinion of looks too fat. A person doesn’t necessarily even need to look it, but they could still qualify.
My SO looks fine at 30, but not much above that. I think they’re sitting at 28 currently.
To muddy the waters, being overweight exists somewhere between healthy and obese, and there isn’t a clear definition. So there is definitely subjectivity involved. But I think that when someone toes the line of obesity, they can absolutely be classified as overweight.
I can’t. My perceptions have been altered by the high prevalence of obesity in our society. I now have higher standards. She looks a little thicker than most people, but not in a way I’d been conscious of before today.
It’s true that general obesity can make it hard to identify overweight people today. I’m lucky to live in Europe, and it’s not as bad here yet. Wiseman is somewhere around 35-40%, which is where the official diagnosis of “obesity” begins.
This is a good example of soulism. Something as basic about our perception of people as whether they’re fat changes based on our home culture. Ultimately, the quality of being fat is a social construct. Science can’t give us a hard cutoff, only culture can do that. Science can only give us degrees.
A naive realist would respond to this ambiguity by denying its existence and saying whatever they think is fat, is fat. A scientific realist would try to find an objective answer in science, perhaps using appealing to the authority of BMI, or looking for a more reliable measurement. A social constructivist would accept that there’s no answer. But a soulist would begin asking what definition of “fat” helps society the most, so we can make a conscious choice of what to believe. The soulist is the only one displaying true agency in how our perceptual world is created.
I like how that focuses on the desired outcomes. Research shows that health risks increase (on average) after a BMI of 25 (slightly more for women). So I would propose a soulism approach in which anyone over a BMI of 25 be considered overweight. That’s generally how medical guidelines categorise weight now.
Well then John Cena is overweight. In fact, he’s obese, with a BMI of 33.9. So BMI isn’t objective reality. And I think it’s useful only as a very rough guideline.
Now I want to question something that’s gone unsaid in this conversation so far. We started with the question “Is Tilly fat?” And now suddenly you’re talking about medicine and health. Is fatness purely a matter of health? I don’t think so. I think fatness touches beauty standards, body autonomy, culture, gender presentation, expression, and identity, and a lot more. I don’t think it’s just health.
And if it is, then Tilly isn’t fat, because she lives in the Federation where they have advanced medical technology. I don’t believe Tilly’s weight is a health concern in the same universe that has dermal regenerators in every first aid kit. I think her blood levels are all great, her physical fitness is within regulation, and her joints are all in perfect condition for her age. I assume that about every Starfleet Officer. I think they have the technology to make all that possible at any weight we’ve seen in the show.
Furthermore, I think Tilly could lose weight very easily if she wanted. Starfleet has synthetic alcohol that breaks down in the presence of adrenaline, I think meals to match an ideal nutritional profile regardless of your fitness goals and portion size are easy in comparison, given replicator technology. I think Tilly chooses her weight because she likes the way she looks and feels the way she is.
So, given all this, is Tilly fat? Well, I think that’s her choice. If we’ve controlled for health, then the biggest effect of the definition is her own comfort. So we should be asking her if she’d like to be called fat. Some people do, and that’s valid. Some people don’t, and that’s valid. I believe in technology and personal choice.
BMI is a population level tool. There are individuals who are extremely muscular who can be in the obese range. I’m not seeking a perfect description - nor will ever such a description exist. If that is your standard then you are taking a postmodernist approach which is “everything is made up and the words don’t matter.” If up means down and the person in the discussion genuinely doesn’t care, there’s no real way to have a discussion after that.
Because you raised the concept of soulism and utility. If we were to consider soulism and utility, I think using objective metrics make sense. I agree that there are many other frameworks we could use.
Humans view the world through their lenses of experience. Tolkien wisely remarked on creating fictional worlds that we should endeavour to change as little as possible compared to our world in order to suspend disbelief. When we do make changes, they should be meaningful, important for the story and world, and consistent. Unless Tilly’s weight is explicitly described as healthy and normal, and it is part of some new universe law and storyline, I don’t think we should be making any such assumptions. I think most people would balk at such a storyline and in-universe change. It would feel performative.