Especially since it’s fundamentally a social activity. Why wouldn’t you consider your presentation if the main part of your hobby is hanging out with other people?
I’ve spent a lot of time with Open Source Programmers and other nerds, including in person, and I believe at least some of the issue is that some of them feel grooming and hygiene is purely aesthetic, bordering on “shallow”. Like the way many of us think about Looksmaxxing or cosmetic surgery.
Like, you spend a bunch of time and money doing your hair or washing your clothes? That time didn’t improve your card playing, it didn’t teach you anything new. Shouldn’t people be judged by what’s inside instead of what’s outside? Shouldn’t people be judged by their skill or merit rather than their looks?
And I intentionally wrote that last one to feel borderline, because I think a lot of people do feel that way, and do believe those things, but not to the same extent. Their boundary for “hygenic enough” requires clean. And maybe the folks I’m characterizing don’t know that it’s actively unpleasant to be around someone who smells bad? Or maybe they’re so steeped in it they don’t know how bad it is?
Tangentially, this is one of the reasons some fem people struggle in these spaces. Any amount of eye-shadow, nice shirt, or hair-style is deemed as “superfluous”, and so any person who spends their time and money on such things is regarded with suspicion. They’re an idiot who wastes their time on looks at best, not to be trusted making other decisions, or a charlatan trying to trick lesser men with their wiles at worst. Those are the only two choices, because there’s no other imaginable reason someone could do these things.
Part of the reason those positions are reached is because of the bullying one receives often comes from “normies” who are the most aesthetically conscious.
If you take shit from Chad and Stacy your whole life you learn, perhaps even subconsciously, that biceps and cologne/eyeliner and perfume are signals that someone is a certain type of way; and you never want to be what they are, or bring that energy to the table.
Funny thing is that they end up dressing and styling in a similar manner while looking down on people who deviate from the unspoken dress code. By rejecting fashion they are making a conscious choice in the way they dress and are therefore participating in fashion.
Sure, but if they all end up looking similar to each other it’s still another form of fashion just not mainstream fashion. They are still signaling, consciously or subconsciously, that they are part of the in-group they want to associate with by the way they carry and dress themselves. It’s no different from what the Chads and Stacys, who they think are superficial, do.
Okay but how is a smelly nerd who buys Pokemon tshirts more ethical than a Stacy who buys clothing from Nordstrom they both participate in the same consooming behavior, pleasing their corporate overlords.
Punks that dress in patched clothes do so because they don’t want to support the industry of sweat shops, exploited labor, and fast fashion. They’d rather buy something used and patch it forever.
That’s an example of an aesthetic that comes from an ethic.
I’m sorry but that type of think is delusional. Like because, taking a shower or washing your clothes doesn’t make you better at cards (why would it??) you don’t need to do it, why would these things be related? They serve completely different purposes. It sounds more like justifications to not do something they don’t enjoy or don’t want to do.
It is, yeah. It’s also what they believe. It’s sort of a sour grapes situation.
For most people, this kind of behavior is socialized out of them by the time they reach adulthood. But a lot of YuGiOh players, and players of other kinds, do not leave their house. To such a person, getting ready to go out requires maybe an hour or more of prep time, mostly because they don’t know what they’re doing, for what feels like 5 minutes of play at grocery store. They would think of this as superfluous and pointless.
A point of similarity I know will ruffle a few feathers: do you make your bed every day?
No I don’t. Why should I? My bed sheets being made or messy doesnt impact anyone else and it barely impacts me. It’s just not a valid comparison to having simple bodily hygiene when going outside.
Hold your horses, there’s no need to get defensive.
I didn’t bring that up to suggest people should—I don’t—I’m just provoking a bit of thought.
You don’t see any similarities at all between making sure you’re shaved, showered, well-dressed, maybe perfumed a bit, before going outside; and making sure your bed is clean, well-kept, and presentable?
You probably don’t invite friends into your bedroom.
So let’s ask a similar question: do you clean your living room before inviting guests over? What is the purpose of that? There’s a good chance you care about it being clean more than they do, so why bother?
That wasn’t in a defensive tone lol. Sorry about not writing clearly enough.
I don’t really see many similarities between making sure I’m clean before going outside and keeping my bed made. Keeping my bed clean? Sure. But spesifically keeping the bedsheets made? Not really. (Messy bedsheets doesnt make a bed “dirty”)
I would clean my living room before inviting guests, yes, however I still dont think thats much of a comparison to bedsheets specifically. The purpose of cleaning the living room before having guests is so that I have a nice space for my guests. There’s a social incentive. I ain’t presenting my bed to anyone often, so there isn’t really a social incentive for me to make the sheets.
I guess it comes down to what makes an individual feel orderly and clean. We clean our bodies to be presentable, but also to feel clean (and be healthy). The former reason isn’t very applicable to making the bedsheets most of the time, but the latter can be.
Edit: I just realised the absurdity of my end conclusion somehow being “I guess ppl have preferences huh”
It’s been so many hours, so I don’t know if I really remember my purpose, but I think it was something like: can you get yourself into a headspace where making your bed seems like a pleasant thing to do?
'Cause I can, even though I don’t.
I don’t live in the 1600s, so it’s hard to imagine what consequences not making my own bed would have; and though I think they’re wrong, the unshowered yugioh player probably feels similarly. They’d have to be taught otherwise.
Your whole premise relies on them failing basic biology class (or somehow skipping out on the microbiology part?) because hygiene is also just about basic health.
So either they’re all very stupid when it comes to basic health, or there’s multiple issues or some other major one.
So I tend to go on long trips, and I end up going 3-4 weeks without a shower if I’m off sailing or camping in the deep woods or whatever. Edit: of course I do make sure to get naked and air out regularly, if I’m not able to wash.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that I get pretty funky, but I’ve never gotten jock itch or anything. No skin conditions.
I think a lot of modern “hygiene” standards have less to do with hygiene and more to do with selling people more crap. Actually, the only time I remember having skin issues was the three months in 8th grade equivalent that I used deodorant. Once I stopped that, all the irritation went away.
I occasionally ask people around me if I smell, or if it’s obvious I usually only shower 3-4 times per week, and most people are surprised to find out I shower 3-4 times per week and don’t wear deodorant.
Edit2: diet also plays a huge part. I tend to eat almost exclusively rice, beans, and veggies. I recently let a friend who had some shit going down live in my basement for six months, and his primarily junk food diet definitely did a number on both odor and my toilets. I didn’t even know that level of mess was possible in six months.
Being exposed to the elements and, I’m assuming in decent shape based off what you said, is pretty different from being indoors sitting all day on a likely less ideal diet.
Also how much you smell depends on how hairy you are too.
I’ve gone camping and without long showers too due to lack of water out in the wilderness, even going nearly barefoot, but between the dirt dust and nature’s VOCs sticking on you, it’s hard to smell too bad unless you’re sweating like crazy as you do some kind of manual labor. And even then, the sun is a good deodorant.
Same with sailing - I think the salt spray inhibits things.
The other thing I don’t wear underwear when out camping. So there’s much more air down there too. Not the case if using underwear and sitting in a chair all day.
But they’re not people–they are other players. What they look or smell like is absolutely irrelevant next to more IMPORTANT details… like if you’re playing a speedoid deck against an archerine, are you really going to have the mental bandwidth to be thinking about stuff like hygiene?
All you’re doing here is demonstrating that you are not a serious person, probably someone whose never had a cyber dragon summoned against them, someone who has really never known true risk.
You take your showers. Blow dry your hair. Apply your deoderant. Then see how you fare against this deck.
Always has been. One of the main reasons I hate driving. Nobody would dare act the way drivers drive without the car anaonymizing them and everyone else.
Especially since it’s fundamentally a social activity. Why wouldn’t you consider your presentation if the main part of your hobby is hanging out with other people?
I’ve spent a lot of time with Open Source Programmers and other nerds, including in person, and I believe at least some of the issue is that some of them feel grooming and hygiene is purely aesthetic, bordering on “shallow”. Like the way many of us think about Looksmaxxing or cosmetic surgery.
Like, you spend a bunch of time and money doing your hair or washing your clothes? That time didn’t improve your card playing, it didn’t teach you anything new. Shouldn’t people be judged by what’s inside instead of what’s outside? Shouldn’t people be judged by their skill or merit rather than their looks?
And I intentionally wrote that last one to feel borderline, because I think a lot of people do feel that way, and do believe those things, but not to the same extent. Their boundary for “hygenic enough” requires clean. And maybe the folks I’m characterizing don’t know that it’s actively unpleasant to be around someone who smells bad? Or maybe they’re so steeped in it they don’t know how bad it is?
Tangentially, this is one of the reasons some fem people struggle in these spaces. Any amount of eye-shadow, nice shirt, or hair-style is deemed as “superfluous”, and so any person who spends their time and money on such things is regarded with suspicion. They’re an idiot who wastes their time on looks at best, not to be trusted making other decisions, or a charlatan trying to trick lesser men with their wiles at worst. Those are the only two choices, because there’s no other imaginable reason someone could do these things.
Part of the reason those positions are reached is because of the bullying one receives often comes from “normies” who are the most aesthetically conscious.
If you take shit from Chad and Stacy your whole life you learn, perhaps even subconsciously, that biceps and cologne/eyeliner and perfume are signals that someone is a certain type of way; and you never want to be what they are, or bring that energy to the table.
This explains a lot. Thanks for this perspective.
Sure but also you don’t have to do all that to just not stink? Wear clean clothes, never work out, never wear make up and use unscented products.
Funny thing is that they end up dressing and styling in a similar manner while looking down on people who deviate from the unspoken dress code. By rejecting fashion they are making a conscious choice in the way they dress and are therefore participating in fashion.
An aesthetic drawn from an ethic is the most authentic aesthetic possible
Sure, but if they all end up looking similar to each other it’s still another form of fashion just not mainstream fashion. They are still signaling, consciously or subconsciously, that they are part of the in-group they want to associate with by the way they carry and dress themselves. It’s no different from what the Chads and Stacys, who they think are superficial, do.
The difference is the ethic. Or lack thereof.
Okay but how is a smelly nerd who buys Pokemon tshirts more ethical than a Stacy who buys clothing from Nordstrom they both participate in the same consooming behavior, pleasing their corporate overlords.
I don’t think either of those are lead by an ethic, and therefore they are both equally terrible
…unless the Pokémon shirt was purchased second hand
I’m not sure I know this use of the term ethic, but it sounds interesting. Care to define or illuminate?
Punks that dress in patched clothes do so because they don’t want to support the industry of sweat shops, exploited labor, and fast fashion. They’d rather buy something used and patch it forever.
That’s an example of an aesthetic that comes from an ethic.
Same thing with the “punk rock” look. It’s so not punk.
I’m sorry but that type of think is delusional. Like because, taking a shower or washing your clothes doesn’t make you better at cards (why would it??) you don’t need to do it, why would these things be related? They serve completely different purposes. It sounds more like justifications to not do something they don’t enjoy or don’t want to do.
It is, yeah. It’s also what they believe. It’s sort of a sour grapes situation.
For most people, this kind of behavior is socialized out of them by the time they reach adulthood. But a lot of YuGiOh players, and players of other kinds, do not leave their house. To such a person, getting ready to go out requires maybe an hour or more of prep time, mostly because they don’t know what they’re doing, for what feels like 5 minutes of play at grocery store. They would think of this as superfluous and pointless.
A point of similarity I know will ruffle a few feathers: do you make your bed every day?
No I don’t. Why should I? My bed sheets being made or messy doesnt impact anyone else and it barely impacts me. It’s just not a valid comparison to having simple bodily hygiene when going outside.
Hold your horses, there’s no need to get defensive.
I didn’t bring that up to suggest people should—I don’t—I’m just provoking a bit of thought.
You don’t see any similarities at all between making sure you’re shaved, showered, well-dressed, maybe perfumed a bit, before going outside; and making sure your bed is clean, well-kept, and presentable?
You probably don’t invite friends into your bedroom.
So let’s ask a similar question: do you clean your living room before inviting guests over? What is the purpose of that? There’s a good chance you care about it being clean more than they do, so why bother?
That wasn’t in a defensive tone lol. Sorry about not writing clearly enough.
I don’t really see many similarities between making sure I’m clean before going outside and keeping my bed made. Keeping my bed clean? Sure. But spesifically keeping the bedsheets made? Not really. (Messy bedsheets doesnt make a bed “dirty”)
I would clean my living room before inviting guests, yes, however I still dont think thats much of a comparison to bedsheets specifically. The purpose of cleaning the living room before having guests is so that I have a nice space for my guests. There’s a social incentive. I ain’t presenting my bed to anyone often, so there isn’t really a social incentive for me to make the sheets.
I guess it comes down to what makes an individual feel orderly and clean. We clean our bodies to be presentable, but also to feel clean (and be healthy). The former reason isn’t very applicable to making the bedsheets most of the time, but the latter can be.
Edit: I just realised the absurdity of my end conclusion somehow being “I guess ppl have preferences huh”
My point exactly. :p
It’s been so many hours, so I don’t know if I really remember my purpose, but I think it was something like: can you get yourself into a headspace where making your bed seems like a pleasant thing to do?
'Cause I can, even though I don’t.
I don’t live in the 1600s, so it’s hard to imagine what consequences not making my own bed would have; and though I think they’re wrong, the unshowered yugioh player probably feels similarly. They’d have to be taught otherwise.
Your whole premise relies on them failing basic biology class (or somehow skipping out on the microbiology part?) because hygiene is also just about basic health.
So either they’re all very stupid when it comes to basic health, or there’s multiple issues or some other major one.
There’s a lot of space between “that dude smells bad” and “that dude is hurting his health by not showering”.
Idk, fungi thrive in said environments.
So? Doesn’t mean they’re (a) bad for your health or (b) able to outcompete everything else to the point of becoming problematic.
Jock itch and co are bad for your health, just not severely
So I tend to go on long trips, and I end up going 3-4 weeks without a shower if I’m off sailing or camping in the deep woods or whatever. Edit: of course I do make sure to get naked and air out regularly, if I’m not able to wash.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that I get pretty funky, but I’ve never gotten jock itch or anything. No skin conditions.
I think a lot of modern “hygiene” standards have less to do with hygiene and more to do with selling people more crap. Actually, the only time I remember having skin issues was the three months in 8th grade equivalent that I used deodorant. Once I stopped that, all the irritation went away.
I occasionally ask people around me if I smell, or if it’s obvious I usually only shower 3-4 times per week, and most people are surprised to find out I shower 3-4 times per week and don’t wear deodorant.
Edit2: diet also plays a huge part. I tend to eat almost exclusively rice, beans, and veggies. I recently let a friend who had some shit going down live in my basement for six months, and his primarily junk food diet definitely did a number on both odor and my toilets. I didn’t even know that level of mess was possible in six months.
Being exposed to the elements and, I’m assuming in decent shape based off what you said, is pretty different from being indoors sitting all day on a likely less ideal diet.
Also how much you smell depends on how hairy you are too.
I’ve gone camping and without long showers too due to lack of water out in the wilderness, even going nearly barefoot, but between the dirt dust and nature’s VOCs sticking on you, it’s hard to smell too bad unless you’re sweating like crazy as you do some kind of manual labor. And even then, the sun is a good deodorant.
Same with sailing - I think the salt spray inhibits things.
The other thing I don’t wear underwear when out camping. So there’s much more air down there too. Not the case if using underwear and sitting in a chair all day.
But they’re not people–they are other players. What they look or smell like is absolutely irrelevant next to more IMPORTANT details… like if you’re playing a speedoid deck against an archerine, are you really going to have the mental bandwidth to be thinking about stuff like hygiene?
All you’re doing here is demonstrating that you are not a serious person, probably someone whose never had a cyber dragon summoned against them, someone who has really never known true risk.
You take your showers. Blow dry your hair. Apply your deoderant. Then see how you fare against this deck.
/s
Ugh, this seems to be the prevailing mentality for driving too. Not other people, just other cars
Always has been. One of the main reasons I hate driving. Nobody would dare act the way drivers drive without the car anaonymizing them and everyone else.
biohazards:
Spoken like a fucking soaplord, get off my table peasant
Soaplord hahaha