cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/64896415
For additional context, here’s Brian’s previous blog post about the first preview release of Xfwl4, where he describes his history with Xfce and the sponsorship:
https://www.spurint.org/journal/2026/06/xfwl4s-first-preview-release
Here is the entire blog post regarding the LLM usage for mobile users, as it doesn’t format correctly on mobile:
LLMs and Xfwl4
I was planning to write a little about my usage of LLMs while building xfwl4 as a small section of a larger blog post, but I decided I’d rather get it out of the way on its own.
While LLM usage can be polarizing in the context of open source, I don’t really see it that way. It’s a tool, like any other. It has good parts and bad parts. On the bad parts, there are three things that stick out for me: Training Data and Copyright
Among other sources, LLMs were trained on publicly-available data, without the permission of any of the rightsholders of that data. That especially smarts since I have a lot of open source code out there, much of it licensed under the GPL. Is training an LLM on my code copyright infringement? If someone gets output from an LLM that looks substantially similar to my code, and they don’t know and don’t follow my license terms, is that copyright infringement?
And if it goes the other way, if output I get from an LLM looks very much like someone else’s code, did I infringe on their copyright?
I’m not sure! US law seems to suggest that training is fair game, as long as the entity doing the training has legal access to the data they’re training on. As for the rest of it, I’m not sure that’s legally settled yet.
On top of that, it sometimes feels icky that companies like OpenAI and Anthropic are making money off of all this when all that data out there – for which they mostly paid nothing – makes it possible.
I don’t, however, think the best response for myself is to just pretend none of it exists. It’s a tool, and a useful one. Environmental and Social Impact
LLMs need a lot of space, electricity, and water. Communities where data centers are being built, along with the associated power plant upgrades, are often getting stuck with some of the bill for those improvements, which is disgusting.
The secret deals between datacenter companies and utility companies, often with municipalities complicit, are often leaving regular ratepayers out to dry. That’s a local problem, and I hope those local people vote in representatives who will take better care of them. Supply Chain
I don’t need to remind anyone how expensive GPUs and RAM are right now. I was planning to upgrade the mainboard in my laptop this year, which would require new RAM (my current board has DDR4 in it), but the cost of 64GiB of LPCAMM2 DDR5 makes my eyes water.
The consumer RAM market has been hollowed out; several companies have either stopped making consumer-grade RAM entirely, or have severely restricted supply in order to make more money selling to datacenters and AI labs. That’s capitalism at work for you, at the expense of regular folks who need to buy computing hardware for personal use.
But here I am, with a Claude Max 5x subscription for the past year and a half. I’m not comfortable with it, but the utility is just too great for me to take a principled stance here. I like it, and I want it, so I’m using it. Maybe that’s morally questionable, or worse. But, as I said: here I am. xfwl4 and LLMs
So yes, I use Claude quite a bit while developing xfwl4. I don’t vibe-code, ever, and I probably use the LLM to generate less code than most people do. After all, building things with code is my hobby and passion (and I’m lucky I got to do it professionally for a quarter century), and driving an LLM is kinda boring. Research and Planning
Most of my time with Claude Code is research and planning. One great match for LLM use here is helping me understand the finer details of xfwm4, since xfwl4 needs to duplicate all of its behavior. One common prompt of mine:
look at the xfwm4 source in detail and determine everything there is to know about $FEATURE. write up a plan for how to implement it in xfwl4 to notes/$FEATURE.md.
I go do something else for a while, and when it’s done, I read the doc, and then spend a while asking Claude questions about it, and telling it the things I don’t like and what I’d like to be done differently, and it updates the doc. Implementation
Most of the time I’ll start working from the notes doc myself, writing the implementation by hand. My guidelines for plan-writing to Claude are to do things in phases, and so I’ll complete a phase at a time, and then ask Claude to validate what I’ve done. Often, while I’m working, I’ll decide to deviate from the plan, and I’ll have to tell Claude to do the validation based on the outcome I want, not based on adherence to the plan.
Once it’s done, I’ll use /code-review and let Claude spawn sub-agents to do a full review of the new code. This usually finds some problems, even problems that the “main” Claude instance didn’t find during its validation. I usually keep running /code-review again and again after finding and fixing issues, until there aren’t any left. I actually haven’t been doing /code-review for very long, maybe 6-8 weeks, as I didn’t know about it. I wish I’d done it from the start, as it’s very useful.
Sometimes I will have Claude write some code for me. Usually it’s when there’s a lot of boilerplate, or if there’s work that feels repetitive and tedious. Claude is generally a great fit for that, and I can both manually review the output and have a subagent do an independent review. I’ll usually keep CC in manual mode and approve every edit after reading it, but for some more mechanical changes, I’ll let it sit on auto for a while, and review when it’s done.
Occasionally I’ll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features. I find it does a pretty decent job here, but I keep it on manual mode and often ask it to write the code in a different way, or take a different approach. Bug Fixing
Whenever there’s a bug, I’ll start looking into the code myself (I want to keep my debugging skills from atrophying), but in parallel I’ll also ask Claude to look into it, either by describing the problem, or pointing it to a Gitlab issue, if there is one.
I’ll admit that it’s rare for me to find the issue faster than Claude does, and there were some issues where I was completely lost, and Claude figured out something in 10 minutes that probably would have taken me days. Tests
xfwl4 doesn’t have many unit tests, but I’d like to improve that at some point. Of the unit tests that do exist, they were al written by Claude. I’ve always found testing to be tedious, and never did a very good job of it. Claude’s tests are generally much more comprehensive than tests I’d write myself.
I’ve heard stories of people saying that Claude will change or delete failing tests instead of actually fixing the problem that makes the test fail, but that hasn’t (yet) happened to me.
xfwl4 also has a test-clients sub-crate that has a bunch of Wayland and X11 client apps for manual testing of various compositor features. I wrote the first Wayland test, using smithay-client-toolkit, but for the rest of them, I told Claude to write them for me, using my first test as a template. My LLM Strategy
I don’t really have one. I just run the best model available for everything (Opus 5, at the time of this writing1). I don’t write skills or other bits of automation. I expect some of that is indeed valuable, but I’m just not interested in it, so I don’t do it.
My usage isn’t high enough to ever hit my 5-hour or weekly limits on the Max 5x plan, so I just don’t worry about it. I started out with the Pro plan, but very quickly started hitting limits in the first 1-2 hours of the 5-hour windows, so I eventually upgraded after trying out extra usage for a bit and deciding I’d be spending more going down that route.
As I said above, I don’t vibe-code. I care about code quality and about understanding what I’ve built. I care about being able to maintain it in the future, manually, without needing an LLM to do everything for me. And That’s It…
That’s it, I guess. I don’t think I would have made anywhere near as much progress with xfwl4 without an LLM. It’s easily saved me months of time, not in writing code (for non-trivial things, I can usually write it just as fast or faster), but in tracking down problems and helping me figure out solutions, whether that’s in Claude reading and reasoning about my code to find something that’s wrong, or in adding tons of targeted debugging prints to gather the information we need, and then sifting through the log file for me to do analysis.
I know this blog post is a tiny drop in an ocean of people writing about their LLM use, but I expect some folks might be curious about the development process behind xfwl4, so I figured a sort of disclosure was in order.
It’s been a little over a month since the first preview release of xfwl4, and I’ve fixed many issues and added new features since then. Hopefully I should have a new preview release in the next week or so, but you can clone the git repository to check out the current state of things for yourself, whenever you want.
So what?
The reasons it's a problem (spoiler, click to expand)
The Licensing Problem:
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs can’t afford to fight, especially in the US’s current extremely pro-corporate courts.
It’s putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
Both Haiku OS and BSD are not allowing AI code contributions for this very reason.
The Ethical problem:
Simply using an AI that’s run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEO’s who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
The Licensing Problem It doesn’t sound like the way the dev is using the LLM would make this a high risk issue. He’s mostly using it for testing/brainstorming/pseudo code rather than generating code to use directly.
But he is still generating decent amounts of code with it as well, as he states:
Occasionally I’ll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features.
Generating that code is injecting copyright risk into the compositor.
You’re cutting out the important context with that quote:
Occasionally I’ll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features. I find it does a pretty decent job here, but I keep it on manual mode and often ask it to write the code in a different way, or take a different approach.
That doesn’t sound like someone who’s just blindly copying and pasting whatever an LLM told them to do. I agree there’s absolutely a risk with using LLM generated code that could cause some copyright issues. But the way he’s using it sounds like it minimizes that risk.
Whether he’s doing it blindy or paying close attention, or telling the AI to re-write it or code it in a different way, does not minimize the copyright infringement risk of the output of the code that is used. Only rewriting the output by hand would minimize that risk.
Manual mode just means he’s approving, rejecting, or asking it to do something different for each step, but the output is still ultimately from the LLM.
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs can’t afford to fight, especially in the US’s current extremely pro-corporate courts.
Has anyone been sued for this reason yet? I haven’t heard of it happening and until it does it’s basically a non issue.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies…
Using the internet in any capacity directly helps the financi situations of the big tech companies
I haven’t heard of it happening and until it does it’s basically a non issue.
Projects that operate on that assumption are essentially sticking their head in the sand and hoping for the best. LLM output is on particularly shaky ground regarding copyright and it’s vulnerability to being sued for plagiarism, see here: https://slrpnk.net/comment/23533549
I think it’s a particularly dangerous gamble for projects based in the US, where the court system is extremely pro-corporation, making it likely to be much harder for a small FLOSS project to defend itself successfully.
Using the internet in any capacity directly helps the financi situations of the big tech companies
If someone gets their internet in the US, it is likely supplying a mega corporation with a monthly revenue stream, as internet providers are an oligopoly here. In other countries, this is often not the case.
Internet access in the modern day is, for the most part, extremely difficult to avoid needing in order to function easily in society.
In comparison, Corporate LLMs are extremely easy to avoid, and all of society got along fine without it just a few short years ago.
Is it not worthwhile to lower your fossil fuel use where possible, despite many in the US needing a car due to terrible public transport? Is it not also worth lowering animal meat consumption where possible for both animal welfare concerns and environmental concerns? I think there’s equal merit in depriving as much capital (and thus power) from pro-fascist tech corporations as possible, even if it is not total.
i wish all ai tools and data centres a very happy explode in a ball of fire
I think you meant LLM tools?
If you’re meaning all AI tools then that also includes anything ML related. Accessibility tools such as Speech to Text models, Text to Speech models. Research tools such as those used to virtually unravel and read heavily damaged or incredibly fragile ancient scrolls, tools to help detect exoplanets, or tools for discovering cures to diseases. And more.
Nooooo. Xfce was my fav :(
What’s the best alternative for lightweight DM that has a policy against AI?
LXQt and MATE are the most comparable alternatives. Neither have commented on AI contributions (either for or against), AFAIK.
We should ask them to take a position, so xfce users (and distros that ship with them) have a safe place to pivot-to
I agree, that would be good to know.
Remember, its ethical as long as you close your eyes during the act.
The issue isn’t Claude. It’s accountability. I’d rather know which human signed it.
it’s both
The problem is both using LLM code in an open-source project due to the threat that poses to the project if they unknowingly introduce copyright infringement, as as well as the very real ethical concerns inherent to using corporate owned and hosted LLM models.
The problems in detail (spoiler, click to expand)
The Licensing Problem:
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs can’t afford to fight, especially in the US’s current extremely pro-corporate courts.
It’s putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
The Ethical problem:
Simply using an AI that’s run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEO’s who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
I don’t disagree.
The genie is out of the bag with AI. I don’t think there’s any “going back” to a pre-AI world. It cannot get back into the tube.
It’s a bubble, for sure, but we aren’t going back to pre-dotcom, either.
In the meantime, though, it’s an arms race. Especially when it comes to things like offensive and defensive cyber security. LLM is especially well-suited for throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks, and that’s a perfect use-case for offensive cybersec.
FOSS has its own set of issues to deal with with regards to LLM code…even beyond the vibe-coding aspects of it, the ultimate problem of licensing and attribution is incredibly complicated.
That is more of a philosophical issue than anything else. Not to be dismissive if it, it’s quite important…I had a conversation recently with a major FOSS group’s sysadmins about their defenses from web scraping. They have outright blocked a major cloud proxy platform’s ASN because of abuses frok their IP blocks.
(What follows is my interpretation of what he said, not his wording)
A lot of that probably isn’t even “offense”, but poorly coded tools run by the platforms customers performing excessive web-scraping…but it exposes the bigger issue that’s more philosophical than anything, because from his perspective, this looks, smells, and has the same outcome, as a DDoS attack. And the only ways to really, truly mitigate such an attack is with CDNs and such, and usually with SSL Decryption on a cloud provider.
These types of methods are diametrically opposed to something like their mission, putting them into a position where they have to outright block a lot of legitimate use to stop a handful of bad actors who are probably more ignorant than maligned.
I kinda see AI as the same. Shaming it, in FOSS projects particularly, isn’t a matter of code quality…it’s a philosophical matter, and the problem-users are usually more ignorant than maligned.
Well, that’s sad. Who knows what potential unattributed plagiarism landmines are part of it then…
The title of this post is incredibly misleading and I can tell you didn’t read how it’s actually being used. The dev isn’t using the LLM for code generation. There wouldn’t be any “potentially unattributed plagiarism landmines” to worry about.
This is a direct quote from the linked blog:
Occasionally I’ll have it write more substantial code for me, usually for bug fixes, and occasionally for small features. I find it does a pretty decent job here, but I keep it on manual mode and often ask it to write the code in a different way, or take a different approach.
He is generating code and using it directly. AFAIK, being on manual mode in Claude just means approving or rejecting the each step of generated code, but it is generated and the dev appears to be using that generated code, which is introducing the risk of unknowingly using and shipping non-open source copyrighted code that the LLM trained on.
Not just that, but also think of all the unforeseen zero days and other types of vulnerabilities people are gonna be dealing with until a real coder comes in to fix the mess left behind.
Straight into the trash
all these experienced lead developers using a new technology to create new software
but you’re the wise one that really knows the truth
oh sorry you’re ml. i hope your delusions are kind to you, heroic commie warrior
Just baby level ad hominem
Using AI for frontend designs is a bad idea too? Or discussing architecture with it? Or getting code checked with it?
Using big tech corporate AI in any capacity is a bad idea.
Using a self hosted model to check for bugs (as long as you have the skills to know when the bugs it detects are not hallucinated) is probably okay. I personally would not recommend letting any LLM do the actual coding for you, however.
Well that explains the strange bug I started encountering in xfce recently. I guess I’ll be spending tomorrow researching DEs, though I’ll probably end up just using TDE or maybe CDE.
EDIT: clarified that the bug is in xfce, not xfwl.
That may be something else if you’re not currently using the Wayland compositor, which I think is still in alpha.
I’m still using xfce; after running into problems with Wayland the three times I tried it, I decided Wayland isn’t really for me. (In fairness one of those was nvidia being nvidia, but the other two are what I consider design deficiencies in Wayland itself)
Bear in mind that each desktop environment has its own implementation of Wayland, meaning each can offer vastly different user experiences. Gnome and KDE currently have the most polished and integrated Wayland compositors, and are the least likely to have any noticeable issues compared to X11, except for perhaps a few edge cases that have yet to be worked on.
Cinnamon, MATE, and Xfce all still use experimental/buggy Wayland compositors, so if any of those desktop environments were the ones you experienced issues with Wayland on, I wouldn’t let that color your expectations of Wayland itself.
I used KDE for my forays into Wayland.
Bear in mind that each desktop environment has its own implementation of Wayland, meaning each can offer vastly different user experiences
Funny you mention that, as that’s (at least closely related to) one of the things I was alluding to when I mentioned design deficiencies in Wayland. The way I understand it is each individual Wayland compositor is free to create their own protocol for stuff like screenshots, and then the Wayland team will take the parts of those protocols and then combine them into the Wayland protocol for e.g. screenshots, which compositors then go back and replace their protocol with that one. Which sounds great on paper, but it leads to a problem I’ll call Ecosystem Lock-in, I don’t quite like that term, I don’t think its fully accurate, but it’s all I can think of for now. What happens is in order for a screenshot program to work on a given compositor they have to interface with that compositor’s screenshot protocol, and it’s a lot of work to support every compositor under the sun, so most devs just won’t. (Which is fine, great even, I think devs these days try to support too much stuff). But say you don’t like Spectacle (Spektacle? I don’t remember), your options are limited to whatever supports KDE’s screenshot protocol.
Or say you’re just moving from an X11 based DE and giving Wayland a try. In the process of moving over you discover your nifty little
scrotbased screenshot script no longer works. After some research you discover thatscrotis X11 only, and the Wayland equivalent isgrim, so you get your scripts converted over but they still don’t work. More research later you learn that grim doesn’t support KDE’s screenshot protocol, and Wayland compositors basically get to do whatever they want in terms of protocol design/implementation. This is what happened to me, and caused me to give up on Wayland.This trips up a lot of people, you’re exactly right. Wayland on KDE, especially on a more up to date distros like Fedora or a rolling distro is great.
Gnome and KDE currently have the most polished and integrated Wayland compositors, and are the least likely to have any noticeable issues compared to X11
made up “fact”
Both KDE and Gnome have significantly more developers on hand to contribute toward implementing their own wayland compositors, and on recent versions, their wayland implementations have worked very well for me, even on Nvidia hardware, which I couldn’t say just a few years ago.
In comparison; Cinnamon’s Wayland backend is only just now becoming usable for most average tasks, Xfce’s effort is the focus of this post, which has only just gotten to an alpha state (still not ready at all for an average user or for distros to adopt as the default), and MATE has no developers on the project who have the necessary skills to make a Wayland compositor, so they are instead trying to integrate the Wayfire Wayland Window Manager instead, and they still consider their own implementation experimental.
They are the best most polished because there exists two other worse implementations in my anecdotal experience.
Wow. Very factual and thorough.
Seems very reasonable. I found my new home in labwc, maybe I’ll try this out once it gets stable release.
Pretty levelheaded opinion, using it mostly for code analysis and review seems like a good idea. Personally I draw the line at using services like Claude, but I’ve been trying to do this kind of task with local models and haven’t figured it out yet, run into issues with context limits. I like Xfce and will keep using it.
Context limit is not really a problem on local models. Qwen3.6 can do up to ~256k tokens, it’s not that far from what things like cursor uses. grok in cursor have exactly 256k tokens for example. Also, you can use opencode with custom config, where you need to set trimming close to that number.
That being said, quality wise it still kinda shit and looses to paid models. I think you need something like GLM 5.2 to compete, which needs 228gb at lowest 1bit quant (not including context size, which can be up to 1m tokens, so you can round up requirements for RAM up to 256gb), so yeah, the only thing that limits you locally — the fact that “AI” companies bought all supply of focking ram and we can’t afford any.
I might try opencode, I just have not gotten it to work well yet to put together an overall understanding of a codebase, and guess that maybe it is more straightforward with whatever interface the author of this blog post is using, particularly with prompts like the one he mentions:
look at the xfwm4 source in detail and determine everything there is to know about $FEATURE.
tbf I only started looking into using agent frameworks and getting them to do this very recently and only tried a few, maybe it’s doable, but what little I’ve tried did not work. Hermes running Qwen3.6 at 64k context, but many files in the codebase exceed that on their own, and that did not get handled gracefully.
Despite still not getting why XFCE still haven’t moved on from GTK and the GNOME shenanigans on it - to the E libraries so XFCE and Enlightenment do a Dragon Ball Z type of fusion and become the one DE to rule them all, and thinking that the XFCE ui is a bit ass at some places for reasons I can’t understand (like having to scroll at some pages on their settings and the misaligned randomly placed stuff in there), I still have respect for their long-time devs and the work they’ve poured on their project over the years. Pretty sure the common sense will prevail in this case.
Because enlightenment libraries are pure running diarrhea level of utterly horrendous, actually horrifyingly bad code.
There is a super famous “Daily WTF” post from a Samsung employee literally forced to work with Enlightenment libraries (back when Samsung was doing TizenOS) that would be an awesome read, although it’s behind a login gate nowadays.
GNOME’s stuff are actually pretty easy to work with
The internet archive comes to the rescue, here’s a link to the rant.
https://web.archive.org/web/20230317214426/https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened
the UI is dated, very dated. even slapping a new theme on there makes it feel like i’m using rainmeter on winXP. that being said it’s been my go to DE if i’m setting up something on a remote server and need a UI.
The only reason people still use XFCE is because of the chicago95 theme.
I’m pulling this out of my ass but there’s some good shit in there so I might be right.
XFCE4 is lightweight and just works. More than enough on a remote desktop running in a LXC, or as my GUI on older hardware (my laptop is now 14 years old, maxed out with 5TB SSD and 16GB RAM).
XFCE is lightweight (low system requirements and resource usage) and stable (in the sense it does not do crazy changes, it stays relatively calm). And the modular approach by design also speaks to a lot of people. And also its from usability standpoint easy to use without getting in your way, but still customizable; kind of like KDE meets old GNOME. Its definitely more reasons to use XFCE than just a theme.
It’s all about DesktopPal 97 for me!
(Unironically do love that theme, but more seriously, I use Xfce on a particularly weak laptop with only 4gb of RAM, where it works as a good compromise between being lightweight yet not needing the configuration that Window Managers need if they don’t come pre setup from the distro itself)
Boycott of the Linux kernel when?
This post is not about the Linux Kernel.
Linux kernel devs use AI. This post is clearly that XFCE and Brian Tarricone are bad because AI bad. It is therefore hypocritical for commenters in this thread to continue using the Linux kernel if they are going to apply this standard consistently.
It is still offtopic.
Yeah, but with Linux Kernel there is no choice. So people who are against AI can be unhappy with Linux Kernel as well but they only can choose to use alternative to Xfce but not to Linux Kernel. For now they can express their annoyance about it being allowed in kernel and hope that some day policy gets changed there as well. I don’t see any moral inconsistency here.
FreeBSD?
AFAIK, they are wisely not accepting AI code contributions over licensing concerns.
The issue is the lack of software support overall. It’s possible to use BSD, but quite limiting.
Haiku OS also decided against accepting AI code for the same reasoning (though that is even more limited, and doesn’t support a wide range of hardware, I believe).
Doesn’t seem to be full-featured alternative for desktops:
I guess it can be hard if possible at all to use apps like Blender, Krita, etc. Also, I’m getting quite used to Portage and Gentoo FreeBSD project is obsolete and unsupported now so it would be very risky to try to run it with FreeBSD kernel.
tbf as the other commenter pointed out FreeBSD might introduce slop at any point even if they’re holding off for now so I wouldn’t put my eggs in that basket
also steam definitely uses AI for development (so does Blender as well as KDE stuff like Krita) so you really should be avoiding them anyways
fortunately we’re blessed to exist at the same time as 9front that’s actually taken a stance on being free of slop <3
for art things paint(1) is an amazing drawing tool and if you’re into gaming there’s timeless classics like pokemon, doom and wipeout
also the OS is still being actively developed by very passionate people that truly care about software so supporting one of the last bastions of hope against clankers just makes you feel giggly and good ^°^
Yeah, there are many places where it’s possible to draw the line, and I personally wouldn’t go into extreme self-sabotage for something like this. So, if there are few dozens alternative DE/WMs that do absolutely the same thing but are not vibecoded, it’s very little effort to switch using those, but if you literally have to give up on your whole system stack or even your whole hobby because of Krita or Blender or Linux Kernel accepting AI assisted code, that’s just too much.
If it starts getting LLM generated code. Right now, it’s not bad.
So what? As long as they do proper QA, using AI is fine.
I use Claude Code with the Fable model too. It is pretty good. It still does hallucinate once in a while. And it still does logical fallacies sometimes. But I mitigate that by using the natural neuronal network in my head to analyzing the generated code (and yes, I am the bottleneck).
Besides the potential risk of unknowable copyright infringement and the dangers that poses to FLOSS projects as I mentioned in another comment here:
Simply using an AI that’s run on a corporate data centers encourages the construction of yet more data centers, with all of the environmental/climate negatives they bring, as well as local harms they induce on the people living near them, such as increased electricity rates.
Using corporate AI directly helps the financial situations of the big tech companies that host them (by boosting usage/user numbers, they are able to attract more investment capital), most of which are owned by right-wing CEO’s who are more than willing to collaborate with and fund fascist governments to ensure that they are not regulated in search of both maximum profits. Some of these companies, such as Nvidia, Palantir and Oracle, genuinely appear to be seeking to use these tools for what would previously be considered crackpot conspiracy theory levels of public control and surveillance.
But if someone is absolutely determined to use them regardless, I would hope they either use a locally run LLM, or use a distributed model like AI Horde, as at the very least that does not encourage the construction of corporate data centers nor boost their financial prospects.
This virtue signaling needs to stop. Yes, the implications for AI are extremely dangerous and foolhardly. Taking out the pitchforks on Brian, an extremely talented and well regarded engineer in the FOSS world, is completely missing the point. It’s akin to blaming drivers of gas vehicles for global warming. The impetus for change are on the systems that put these things in place, not a FOSS dev building a WM. The incentive structure of limitless growth at all costs in the IT sector and the unfettered power projection of capital are to blame here. Until you’re willing to do something to stand up to that, then we’re all just waving our dicks in the wind here. Posting is not praxis.
We get it, you correctly arrived at the conclusion AI is bad. Welcome to the club. Brian Tarricone is a professional and I have no reservations of the quality of this code. You might as well boycott the linux kernel because guess what, AI generated code is in there too.
Classic “it doesn’t affect me” (yet), so it’s fine. Maybe you’ll change your tune when you run out of drinkable water because data centers are pumping it on top of climate change.
How on Earth could you derive “I don’t give a shit” from “stand up to systems of oppression, don’t castigate individuals”? Do your eyes even work?
This type of name and shaming just doesn’t scale. You can’t recycle your way out of climate change. This type of thinking places the responsibility on the individual, who by very nature is powerless and who’s individual actions have essentially no effect on outcome.
These types of sentiments don’t scale well into change, but it certainly allows the person making the post to feel good and to let others know they think the right things.
Refusing to use the tools that profit the very thing we want to stop is part of standing up to it, how is that not obvious?
Use of literally any electronic or battery-operated device on the planet uses metals sourced from child and/or forced labor somewhere in the world. Unless you’re prepared to move off the grid and live in the woods, these type of arguments at higher levels are endlessly pointless IMO.
It’s definitely worth buying used wherever possible, and to repair electronics whenever possible to avoid unnecessary consumption (part of why Right to Repair is so important). Similarly, it’s quite beneficial to switch to plant-based meats to avoid both unnecessary animal suffering and the carbon emissions and resource wastage that goes with industrial animal production (especially as those resources become more and more scarce due to poor crop yields and drought from climate change).
It’s often not possible to do either of those things 100%, such as it not being possible to be completely vegan/vegetarian due to a family member that isn’t on board with it, but it’s still beneficial to do what they can, even if it’s only 20, 30, or 50%.
Corporate AI usage, on the other hand, is one of those things that truly is completely avoidable with virtually no effort, and was something we all got along fine without just a few years ago. There are even more ethical self-hosted or decentralized non-corporate alternatives.
Someone deciding to ignore the harmful externalities of corporate AI is making a choice to prioritize their own convenience over helping prevent our planet from becoming extremely unpleasant for billions of people and animals to live on, or the financing of a fascist surveillance state.
We’re not talking about you, you can do whatever you want. I’m talking about publicly naming and shaming developers for using what is now a widely accepted tool.
Creating a callout post isn’t standing up to anything, it’s just noise. You get special internet points for it, but it doesn’t mean anything and again, diverts responsibility from the people who built this fucking Torment Nexus in the first place.
The developer made this public post of their own volition, presumably for others to read and make up their own mind on. It’s not naming and shaming to alert others their DE is going to be AI coded in the future, or to point out the potential downfalls of the project adopting AI.
You created an account a few minutes ago just to say individuals shouldn’t bear any responsibility whatsoever, and worse, that advocating for reducing the problem in a meaningful way is virtue signalling?
Your comment just so happened to grasp my attention. There’s simply no need to resort to ad hominem.
Is the BP oil spill my fault because I drive a car to work?
All of us can try to take steps to reduce our fossil fuel use, either by trying to drive less, using public transport if available, or using an e-bike if viable. Individually the contribution is small, but collectively it can add up to help reduce demand, thus reducing the financial incentive to invest in oil or drill for more.
Of course we can, but that’s not how history works. People do what they will do based on their conditioning and material conditions. Of course not always, but enough where we can derive conclusions. Scolding and finger wagging isn’t going to fix this problem. If you think one sliver of the population of Earth gives one single solitary fuck about reducing their carbon footprint, I have a bridge to sell you.
Look, I respect you and your take, I’m not trying to be an asshole. I just genuinely don’t think your approach is a viable method of achieving what you’re saying.
Of course we can, but that’s not how history works.
History has shown that it does, in fact, work like that.
Where is the ad hominem? If you’re going to pretend to speak Latin, at least know what the fucking words mean, you absolute potato.
And in case it wasn’t clear, that was an example of ad hominem.
The above commenter was calling into question my character because I had just created my account today. The definition of ad hominem I’m familar with:
“Attacking a person’s character or motivations rather than a position or argument.”
The commenter seems to imply that because I created my account recently, that my argument is therefore somehow not valid. I would consider that the be an attack on my character or motivation, rather than addressing my position. Would you agree or no? May have been a bit of an editorial stretch on my part, but it certainly doesn’t call for you actually calling me names and insulting me. I’m just here for some banter. Your comment is obviously malicious, and I think you’re better than that.
Edit: yep, downvote and move on. Exactly what I thought. Classic potato behavior.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Nah, fuck Brian. He’s an AI using twat. No care for the environment, people, or IP that’s been stolen.
This AI apologizing needs to stop. Yes, the implications for AI are dangerous and foolhardy. Full stop.
How easy it is to have maximalist positions on the internet, where they never have to come into contact with reality.
Why should I take what you have to say seriously when you can’t even be bothered to read the entirety of my post where I agree AI is bad and this doesn’t make it go away
I read your whole post, I just responded to the part I cared to respond to. You’re saying you don’t like AI then defending it out the other side of your mouth. You don’t have to care about anything I say at all. This is the Internet where there are many things you can read and not take seriously.
If you are interpreting what I said as a defence of AI, then this conversation is useless because you are deliberately misinterpreting it at best, or at worst being deceitful in your rhetoric. Good day.
I suppose you’ll be moving off of Linux then, as the kernel devs have made their stance on AI quite clear.
Yeah, I don’t agree with Linus’ stance at all. But the alternatives are macos and windows lmao, hardly a fair comparison. I do need some form of os on my PC, and Linux is still the best option. I don’t need xfce or xfwl however, I’ll just pick a different DE.
It doesn’t hallucinate because it’s not a living thing.
It also doesn’t do logical fallacies because it’s incapable of reasoning or any kind of thinking at all.
Stop anthropomorphising LLMs.
ETA: Uh-oh, guess I triggered the people who think ChatGPT is their friend xD
“admits to” makes it sounds like it’s something horrible
I’m certainly not pleased with it.
It is.
If this never happened, my day would’ve been 2% better.
Still, though. I frowned for at least two or three minutes.
Nope, you’re supposed to run your free project in a manner that we approve of only, please.
Unknowingly using potentially copyrighted code from an LLM in a FLOSS project opens it up to being sued for infringement, which most FLOSS devs can’t afford to fight, especially in the US’s current extremely pro-corporate courts.
It’s putting a target on your back for down the road when it becomes profitable for patent trolls to use AI to try to scan for copyrighted code on public code bases. Big tech companies could do the same to squash an open source competitor.
It could also simply be seen as a bad look no matter any risks, potentially the taking of code snippets from other projects that may have a significant code length, without attributing them properly. I find it sad.
If somebody proposed to build you a house with slave labor free of charge, would you be happy about it?
Since the answer is quite obvious, we can clearly state that even if something is free and beneficial for you, there is a line which you shouldn’t cross.
That out of the way, we now have to figure out where to draw this line. It just so happens that for a lot of people using a technology that actively destroys our environment, makes every computiational device more expensive, literally makes it’s users dumber, and is built with very ethically questionable methods lies beyond the line.
Oh, if that’s not enough, LLMs can kill you if you are psychologically unstable.
actively destroys our environment, makes every computiational device more expensive, literally makes it’s users dumber, and is built with very ethically questionable methods
you mean like the metals mined by children and forced labor that’s in every electronic device and battery on the planet? so you’re talking to us from a cup and string in the woods then, right?
Are you arguing that since other terrible things exist, I shouldn’t try to make the world a better place? I can’t exactly see how that’s a valid point.
I suppose you are trying to appeal to the fact that I’m not perfectly morally pure, trying to make it look like whatever I said is automatically invalid? That’s not how it works. If I say both “smoking is bad for your health” and “you should throw needles into sandboxes”, how exactly does the latter statement being utterly horrible affect the veracity of the former one?
And of course I’m trying to minimize my usage of things made via exploitation of others, as in repairing the hardware instead of buying new stuff. It’s just incredibly hard to live in the modern world without mudding yourself somewhere. We judge thieves based on their circumstances and whatever they stole, just being a thief does not make you as bad as the worst one, the world is not black and white like that.
Yes, that is also fucked, and I don’t agree with that either, but unfortunately it is becoming increasingly difficult to function in society without a smartphone. I can very easily decide not to use ai or products built with ai.
Likening LLMs to slave labour now, are we? You guys get nuttier by the day.
Did you read further than the first sentence? Because that is not what they were saying at all. The next sentence explains why they mentioned slave labour at all.
Mmm. Yeah, completely neutral choice solely for the purpose of establishing that there’s a line. Definitely not also used as a framing device!
framing device
That was not my intention at all. I just needed a hypothetical free service that you wouldn’t want to receive despite being of benefit to you.
If you have another example like that, I’ll be happy to replace it with something else, as long as it’s repulsive enough.
Fair enough!


















