Here are some reflections on my personal experience of federated social media.
A bit of background. In the 90-9-1 trichotomy, I am one of the 9%: an occasional active participant. As of 3 years ago I had been dabbling in social media since I was a teenager in the 90s, but never very deeply. Newsgroups and IRC; a bit of invisible blogging; various techie web forums; Twitter from 2008 (hardly any tweets); Facebook in the early 2010s (a post or two per week at the peak); then Reddit. As of 2023 I had been “on” Reddit for nearly a decade and not even written 100 comments. Then I decided on a whim to join Lemmy.
The good
Three years later I have written nearly 100 original posts and over 3000 comments! This is an order of magnitude more than I used social media in the previous 25 years. How to explain it?
A bunch of things. I liked the UX instantly, it’s much better than Reddit. No ads, so no nagging feeling that you’re bankrolling a corporation. A (slightly) higher level of conversation quality than Reddit.
Probably the single biggest explanation is just that it’s quieter. On Reddit I always arrived too late to the party. It’s hard to find the motivation to say something when a thread already has 800 comments. On Lemmy, I’d arrive 12 hours after the post and there were only 6 comments. If I take the time to compose my thoughts, somebody might actually see it! I get the paradox here (there are tons more eyes passively looking at Reddit), but the “quiet room” effect is real.
Highlights
Hands down the best community I’ve found here is (no surprise) a specialized one: [email protected]. Lots of original content and genuine expertise, zero vitriol or toxicity. Perfect. In a similar vein, [email protected], where you can literally post pics of pigeons to an adoring audience.
I’ve also got some value out of [email protected] and [email protected] for one of those reasons: the ambient expertise. It’s not really breaking news: Linux and FOSS and privacy are really the only subjects where the fediverse can go toe-to-toe with the corporates in terms of expertise. IMO that’s already an achievement that should not be squandered!
Quite a few of my 96 posts are original content (“OG”, ugh). A whole bunch are photos from my bike-touring escapades, which I posted somewhat arbitrarily to [email protected] , [email protected], and [email protected]. I rationalize this as an alternative to blogging: instead of hosting your own invisible vanity website, you can write what you have to say in a place where you have less control but where people may actually read it. It’s the logic of social media, basically, but minus the ads and opaque algos and shareholders. As expected, my holiday photos were not viral sensations, but they did attract some love and a few nice comments. Success!
The less good
My experience on Lemmy has taught me something that I knew in theory but (somehow) not quite in practice: Socializing via text on a screen is quite hard to pull off successfully. The lack of physical accountability, the inherent difficulty of text communication (avoiding ambiguity without the help of a face or body language), all this tends to make people into worse versions of themselves. Me included to some extent, I’m sure.
And then there’s the echo-chamber problem. It turns out that when people have an option to avoid dealing with ideas they disagree with (even slightly), very many of them choose that option. IMO this is a major (perhaps fatal) problem with social media. The fediverse is not magically immune from it.
Lowlights
The first - and definitely worst - experience I’ve had was 2 years ago when I got banned from [email protected] for “racism and gaslighting” on the basis of, well, pretty much nothing except the moderator’s paranoia. Shut out of the single community that had most drawn me to Lemmy, I tried [email protected] and in short order had a similar experience. I am a European liberal who votes green, and a moderate on social questions, although admittedly I do enjoy debate. To be shut down so brutally for daring to question progressive doxas in the politest terms - for me this was quite a shocking confirmation of the intolerance of a certain section of the (mainly US) left.
On [email protected] I got a virtual slap on the wrist for posting an article offering constructive criticism of degrowth. I’m basically a degrowther myself but I believe it’s important to stress-test one’s ideas (cf. J S Mill). The moderators politely disagreed. Fair enough. I deleted my post and unsubscribed.
The problem on [email protected], meanwhile was (is) slightly different. It’s that the community is swamped by a single hyperactive member who posts relentlessly on exactly the same themes with the same POV, and - the echo chamber, again - responds badly to any pushback. I contacted the moderator in private and received a virtual shrug.
So I decided to ditch all politics and stick to photos and niche subjects. But even here it has not been plain sailing. A (slightly whiny) post I wrote a few months ago about the difficulty of installing Linux on cheap hardware (a pretty niche subject!) received an avalanche of mockery and insults that really took me aback. And then I really stirred up a hornets’ nest quite recently in this very community when I proposed a feature which would hugely improve my experience of Lemmy without affecting anyone else. Can’t link to that because it got (very belatedly) deleted, ostensibly because offtopic but in reality because the proposal was unpopular. In fact this was my last post on Lemmy to date. Probably not a coincidence.
Conclusions
For me personally, the jury’s still out. I’m pretty ambivalent about social media in general. Since The Atlantic introduced a discussion space a few months ago, I admit that I’ve transferred some of my energy there. And yes, it’s been a better experience. But the reason is no indictment of Lemmy: It’s that The Atlantic has a paywall, which essentially means I’m talking only to privileged people like myself there. I enjoy Hacker News even more, but that’s because it’s super specialized (politics is mostly banned), and professionally moderated, and also (attention: wild POV!) because it’s full of engineers and other spectrumy types who take a Spock-like approach to communication. The problems I’ve had on Lemmy are problems of all generalist social media, not specifically of the fediverse.
In my case what remains are the figures. Despite everything, I have contributed more, and more personally, on Lemmy than I ever did on the R-site or anywhere else. That has to count for something. Corporate social media is a manipulative money-driven spyware-fueled nightmare. The federated decentralized type is obviously, plainly, better. That’s why it has to succeed.
It does have a bit of a echochamber (defederation and moderation) problem, i agree. We should look out for that.
echochambers are what people want.
i’m not sure how you fix that ‘problem’. you can’t force folks to interact with those who are different than them without them becoming resentful and angry that differences exist, and inevitable demonizing people for those differences.
It would be great to have opt-in choices to either enter or not be forced into entering such spaces. Like I do not wish that e.g. ChapoTrapHouse did not exist, I only wish that proper labels would be more readily visible so that people would not stumble into them unawares. Likewise, Lemmy.ml’s disallowance of criticism of Russia, China, or North Korea is not exactly easily read from the instance sidebar, nor is that sidebar readily visible from most 3rd-party apps that I have seen - especially when browsing by All, which how else would someone even browse, especially when new and haven’t subscribed to much yet?
So agreed that labeling would solve most of the issues. But if e.g. Lemmy.ml refuses to allow any criticism of Russia, China, or North Korea, then at least someone would be aware that it has chosen to be an echo chamber in that manner (while others choose to be echo chambers in different ways - e.g. PieFed chooses to restrict votes to a daily quota rather than topic-based, which is just a different style of filtering).
Haha. I used Lemmy.ml for a little while, and I noticed that it had a lot of pro-China posts and tankies, to the point that I found it likely to be state-sponsored propaganda. It’s reassuring to hear that someone else noticed the bias.
problematic communities like that are never going to label themselves as problematic.
they also don’t see themselves that way. They think they are bastions of truth and free speech and open-mindedness, it’s just that everyone else is wrong and close minded.
every echo chamber, and hate community, and cult-like group thinks like this. abusive sex cults don’t go ‘hey we are an abusive sex cult who will destroy your identity and steal all your money, come join us!’
And that mismatch between the claim and reality is what will - if anything does - doom the entire Threadiverse to irrelevance. It’s understandable that inside the echo chamber they refuse to see what is plain, but what is far less fine is when everyone else simply goes along with it, with zero pushback.
Lemmy is a
Nazitankie bar (for anyone who does not know, see Paradox of Intolerance). The lack of moderation is why whenever Lemmy gets brought to in outside mentions, it is as the butt of a joke and laughed at (I’ve seen it treated such in Reddit, X, Bluesky, Tildes, etc.).Here is a perfect example: https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/1uiywal/should_we_switch_to_lemmy/. An entire community was deciding whether to move here or no, and the majority of the top comments are basically just “lolz no fucking way”. A few examples:
To be fair, some of these issues are older now - like PieFed has basically solved the onboarding issue, and db0 solved the CP spam one from years back, though such events tend to stick around in people’s memories… and I cannot honestly state that the lack of moderation has gotten any better. MAYBE will the upcoming release of Lemmy v1.0??? Though I exceedingly doubt that, especially after seeing what happened to Lemm.ee.
Also tbf, people did recommend Beehaw and mander.xyz as sensible choices. The former was more or less soundly rejected by bringing up its defederation status from lemmy.world, cutting it off from the majority of the Threadiverse communities (although the ones locally on it i think are quite nice - I’ve never had a negative interaction with any of them), and the point that a single cadre of super-mods controls the entirety of what is allowed to be said on it, which is what they would be wanting to get away from by leaving Reddit. Browsing locally on mander.xyz though… that just might work!? But only if you are exclusively interested in STEM and basically nothing else.
Being a tankie bar is our choice, but others refuse to enter into that journey alongside us. So long as we entertain the most toxic among us, refusing to distinguish them in any way from anyone else, mainstream normies are going to refuse to put in the enormous amount of effort required to do that work for themselves, and so will simply stay on Reddit or move to corporate solutions (like Bluesky) that do not shirk from doing so, rather than enjoy the Fediverse where they would be free but that also requires the high amount of effort that comes with that.
The solution is quite simple, really. Mods (or anyone else for that matter) should not be able to ban people. The concept of global banning shouldn’t exist. If an account posts/comments stuff you like, then just block it on a personal level. Global banning (especially when the decision can only be done by the mods / a select few people) will always lead to echo chambers.
Then a few accounts could spam every community with nazi shit or child porn (hidden from users who blocked them), so any newly registered users would leave the second they joined.
Would this really happen, tho? Also you could give a prompt to new users on this issue and tell them how they can subsequently block those accounts. Sure, there are always pros and cons to doing things, but in my experience the current approach where you give a select few people total control always results in total echochambers. Which I believe on the broader scale just reinforces the political divide of a society.
yes, it does frequently. you’re naive if you think there are highly abusive actors in every online space like this.
determined folks with negative agendas also have a lot more resources and energy to put into harassment and spamming, than any ordinary person does. they are also often well-financed and emotionally driven.
Ironically, PieFed has allowed such things for something like a year already - e.g. with keyword filters someone who does not want to view content involving “Trump” or “Musk” can avoid it on a personal level, without requiring a mod to make that decision for everyone.
Likewise, for all the flak it has received, the “reputation” visual indicators put additional power into the hands of end-users to decide how they best would like to interact with others on the platform.
Another one, back to actual filters again, is an automated collapsing or even filtering of comments below a certain score threshold. I always turned those off, but for those who want them they are neat to have - not every moment of every day does every person need to be ready to read such content, sometimes people just want a break from anything controversial and to enjoy a pleasant read?
Lemmy is glacially slow to add new features so I wouldn’t hold my breath for these anytime soon, but FYI, they do already exist elsewhere.
This never works
ughhh why do libertarians think they are the first babies to use their brain in the most basic way possible?
I am so tired of this lazy narrative, the obvious truth here is CENTRALIZED SPACES ARE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THE ECHO CHAMBER EFFECT.
Yes it is still a problem here of course but the diversity here mitigates not worsens that issue.
If you are going to disagree with me prove it with data and facts I don’t care about your anecdotally derived feelings about it.
Echo Chambers literally require large monolithic enclosed spaces to echo, a series of isolated smaller foam cells form materials with sound deadening properties so not only is the intuition/metaphor wrong here it is 180 degrees wrong.
https://www.thevitagroup.com/en/vita-blog/how-does-soundproofing-foam-work/
The structure most prone to the Echo Effect is a Cathedral not a dense network of semi-isolated smaller spaces. Every time we discuss “Echo Chambers” without recognizing this it dumbs the conversation down further.
How does Lemmy.zip have an echo chamber / defederation issue?
If it does, this is the first I am hearing about it, and I find it of great interest.
If not though, then why does it bother you that other people may have made a different choice than what your instance has done?
Uhm, more generally, not only lemmy.zip. Most of lemmy is more left-leaning + tech, while more conservatives might feel more welcome with the (defederated) tankies. This can be a problem, with fueling extreme views.
Most of Lemmy is also white and male in addition to being left-leaning and tech focused. We really could use more diversity across the board here.
There are no ads here, and no corporate Algorithm to contend with, plus everything is entirely freely offered. If we were more welcoming to mainstream normal folks, people would be outright flocking here.
In fact, people have checked us out and even made accounts, but at least half the people that came here have since left, often self-reportedly after remaining here for at least one or multiple years. We are driving them away in droves. Possibly we do not (collectively) want them here.
What we “need” (in order to survive) vs. what will actually be done are entirely separate matters.
Everyone who isn’t white and male, you mean?
Thank you for clarifying, no I actually meant non-technical folks who don’t spend as much time in introspection, as opposed to e.g. creating things. An example could be a comics artist, or a craftsperson, let’s say working with wood, who gets confused by all the technical hurdles needing to be overcome in order to join the Threadiverse. We (who use Linux btw) thought virtually nothing of any of that, even finding it fascinating how and why the entire Fediverse is able to function as it does, but they tend to feel daunted at such and turn away rather than engage.
I felt the need to clarify since you chose my comment about needing more diversity of people with a quip about not wanting mainstream, normal folks.
It was the rampant sexism that initially turned me away from the fediverse. I think I tried two or three times before I found my groove and the communities that speak to me.
It’s not that confusing to use the Threadiverse and I think it’s a little snobbish of you to think crafts people shouldn’t be welcome if they get confused by some of the tech stuff here. I have never used Linux and can function fine on this site. You’re underestimating people.
It’s not a quip - we’ve had quite in-depth discussions about this topic before and people have outright stated that they do not want normal folks to come here (example). Something about barriers to entry keeping this place a safer haven against undesirable segments of the population. I disagree with that viewpoint, but that is my background context.
It would indeed be nice if this place was more welcoming to people, imho. And being a technical person myself, who is here, I was only going by what people said about this place when they left it or refused to join. Early on, during the Rexodus (when Huffman spurned 3rd-party app developers and thereby many of us left in protest, foreseeing what Reddit was about to become - “when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time”), the most common refrain was that it was too empty and too complicated to figure out. Later, the most common mantra (in e.g. r/Redditalternatives) it shifted to still being too empty but also far too toxic (example), even people sticking around on Lemmy for several years but eventually leaving as a result (example that is not Reddit - I’ve also seen similar on Bluesky as well but it’s much harder to search for those).
Like here is a great example of a recent discussion of people on Reddit deciding whether to come here: https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/1uiywal/should_we_switch_to_lemmy/. The poll said yes to move but with major pushback. Some selected comments:
This one is misspelled but reflective of many longer comment replies saying similar - honestly I think a lot of people got confused by not understanding the difference between the “Local” vs. “All” sorting. Obviously a lot of that will depend on people’s method of access, e.g. a 3rd-party app vs. web browser UI, and also PieFed has basically solved the onboarding issues, though PieFed has its own… problems to contend with (leading to an exodus of some of the highest contributors to it, I mean to say PugJesus but also I’ve seen others say the same things since they no longer feel welcomed, which in turn is only going to exasperate the lack of content issue still further).
Sorry if I somehow implied that gender discrimination was not an issue, I just wanted to add that it is not the only one - it is merely one among many that turn people away. Including you, until you found your groove, but many won’t stick around long enough to do so.