I’ve made it 5 years without catching a ban from anywhere except some community on another instance for allegedly being anti-trans, but idk how they got that since I’m pro-trans
Well, China is a “beacon of prosperity” by any objective measure. I’ve not seen anyone there make the other claims. Though they do debunk a lot of the anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda, they back it up with facts.
No, freedom of press is not a measure of prosperity. And I don’t know many western countries that are in a position to point fingers at this point, considering how many journalists they’ve helped kill when they covered a genocide.
They deradicalized a sect that had been trained to destabilize the region by western intelligence, and reintegrated them into society. The facilities don’t even exist anymore, because they were successful.
It’s a beacon of prosperity when there are anti suicide nets at foxcon? Or like the 996? Run by a dictator, also committing genocide isn’t very prosperous. My interactions have been " if it’s western propaganda it’s entirely false, but Chinese or Russian propaganda is entirely true"
800 million people out of poverty is a stretch but if you wanted to make that claim, it’s because the west spent so much money to get goods from China. And the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs
800 million people out of poverty is a stretch but if you wanted to make that claim
Yeah, where do these stupid tankies get these numbers anyway? I’m sure China says they lifted 800 million kajillion people out of poverty or whatever, but let’s see what a western source like, say, The World Bank has to say about it.
it’s because the west spent so much money to get goods from China.
I swear these arguments get worse every day. You could just as easily say that the only reason the West has so much stuff is because China made it for them for cheap.
Wait, that’s actually a much more coherent argument lol.
The UN did not find genocide only human rights abuses at best. You can go to China, you can go to a mosque and talk to Uyghurs there.
Meanwhile the west is funding a real genocide in Gaza. You can’t go there to film the atrocities being committed and brave people still try. Israel has killed more journalists in their genocide than ww2
Or maybe if it’s so prosperous people wouldn’t want to work in a place where they want to kill themselves.
America has a higher suicide rate lol
That has never stopped authoritarian governments lol
I don’t understand what you’re saying. The 996 thing does exist but it was made illegal. Sometimes private companies try to make workers do more hours illegally.
Ok sorry ethnic cleansing isn’t genocide, sorry…
They didn’t find ethnic cleansing either. Again, you can go to Xinjiang and visit mosques with Uyghurs praying in them. So yeah ethnic cleaning ain’t happening.
And you think I’m supporting the west’s genocide in palestine? Nah miss me with that shit
You brought up the genocide to someone speaking positively of China. But the only ones doing genocide are the west. China does a bunch of bad shit it isn’t perfect but if genocide is the criteria we’re running with then China is the lesser evil.
Compare for instance homelessness in china and the west. Homeownership. Access to healthcare, higher education, public transportation etc. Why do you think it’s not a beacon of prosperity?
China doesn’t have better healthcare than the US, their system is essentailly Obamacare. I’ve asked my aunts in China about it.
Homeownership? I mean that’s just white westerners mismanaging their money. Literally I heard of white dudes be spending their entire paycheck in bars and gambling, while still having unpaid bills. Look at the percentage of Asian Americans owning homes compared to non-Asians Americans, maybe its not a “China vs West” thing, but just Asian people are more responsible with money, I mean, we literally live in the same country as y’all, and as a matter of fact, we even face more discrimination and prejudice, yet somehow, Asian people have higher home ownership. No offense, and not to victim blame, but what are y’all doing? I mean… My family didn’t come from a rich background either, we grew up in poverty.
High education? I mean, depends. I had a Hukou in Taishan (rural) and was denied access to Guangzhou’s (urban) public schools. A permanent 2nd class resident basically. Even the US (prior to 2025, at least) had allowed undocumented immigrants to go to public school, yet China denied their own citizens education if they dare to move to another location even within the country. If we hadn’t moved abroad, we have to eventually go to highschool in Taishan, which has a much lower quality of education than Urban areas.
Public transportation… well you got that part right, I’ll ackowledge that. I remember Guangzhou’s metro being way more modern and cleaner than the US, and I loved the platform safety door protecting people from falling. But that doesn’t exactly matter that much when the job market is fucked. And Hukou system is fucking stupid.
The only way for China to be a “beacon of prosperity” for you is if you have some skills like being a scientist or something like that, or just born into wealth. Otherwise, its not a great place for average people.
If its a beacon of prosperity, why are there so many people leaving? Why is there a consensus amongst the most of the Chinese Diaspora that the west is better?
My parents both grew up in poverty in rural villages, the Hukou system prevented people from leaving Taishan to seek better income, until Deng Xiaoping’s Opening Up and Reforms. Even then, jobs have much longer hours and minimal break time. I never really got to see my parents much, they just left my brother and I at home, just the two of us alone, so we end up fighting a lot. That was what “child care” was. At least until I was even old enough to be enrolled in pre-school and primary school.
Because I was the 2nd child, I didn’t get legal recognition of my existence until my parent paid the government’s demand of a large payment (aka: a "fine) for not having a government permission slip for childbirth, which is like wtf, why is that the government’s bussiness?!?
And because we didn’t have Hukou in Guangzhou, they didn’t let us be in public schools, my parents had to pay for those privately run “school” which have a lower quality of education.
When my family (legally) immigrated to the US, at first, the work wasn’t that much better, but eventually they managed to save up and buy a house, and eventually found better income, much better than any of the work they could find in China.
Of course, western countries has its own problems, such as xenophobia and racism, but for the most part, for most people, including many of my parents friends and relative who left China, life is generally better abroad compared to staying in China.
Depending on your circumstances of course, if you are a scientist, maybe its would be best for you to stay, but most of us aren’t scientists, don’t have much opportunity for income in China.
life is generally better abroad compared to staying in China.
Do you expect this to be true for the coming years?
My impression was that migrant workers don’t earn enough to own a car but that cities are build for that so that overall quality of life, especially when it comes to healthcare services, starts to be better in China.
If you were classically educated, you’d know the meme is about Sortition vs Elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition). The idea is that you can’t have democracy when you have to vote for your representative, because rich families will manipulate the election process. The better solution to pick your Senate would be to randomly select group representatives and have them cooperate.
And that was what Greece philosophers like Aristotle thought ~2300 years ago. Actually all sources we have suggest that Greeks from that era though that elections are undemocratic, and only sortition can provide true democracy.
Seems to be true today when we vote, we pick between turds, and nothing changes for the better. <- and that’s what meme is about
Side note: Carlin was right, you get educated only enough to be able to work for your masters.
How many people looking at that meme even knew about ancient Greeks shitting on elections in favour of sortition and went there, instead of thinking “elections bad? You must want to have a king, you authoritarian swine”
Without elections you get to have kings and emperors. Unless you go full on direct democracy which actually is becoming more feasible thanks to the Internet I guess?
Reddit and other non-free social media is the result of capitalism, have you considered similar negative effects would occur if the opposite world view was in power?
Reddit is part of the culture war. Lemmy.ml is part of the culture war. Lemmy.world is part of the culture war. Everything is part of the culture war.
I think the strength of a federated social media is that it’s easy to change instance and infighting is a way to have this discussion and come to conclusions. You wouldn’t convince people to leave reddit by posting on lemmy and you wouldn’t turn a tankie into an anarchosyndicalist but you might reach people unaware about what instance they landed on or raise awareness about how to interact with communities and users on .ml. Why have a federated network anyway when you refuse to engage with the concept of federation?
By defeating Tsarism, Nazism and doubling life expectancy, Bolsheviks actually saved tens of millions of leftist lives. In the same sense that you probably (hopefully) support Palestine even if right now they’re not very socially progressive regarding leftism, LGBT and women’s rights, you may understand why a state under the threat of Nazism invading went through serious disturbances.
You’re probably talking about Gulags. GULAG was the prison system of the USSS, with its primary intent being reform of criminals. The vast majority of GULAG prisoners weren’t political, as has transpired from modern historiography and analysis of the Soviet Archives. The only moment of history in which the GULAG system had a high mortality, was during the famine caused by Nazi invasion of the USSR, invasion in which 25 million Soviet lives were extinguished in the struggle against fascism. Before, and after the invasion, mortality rates went down to being much lower.
Talking of the GULAG system as of concentration camps just shows that you have done no research on the topic, which is shameful as a leftist. Socialism must be well-informed and materialist, not vibes-based. There is criticism that can be made of socialism, but it has to be grounded on reality if we want it to be effective, not grounded on CIA propaganda.
Lol@ following up your feigned outrage at trivializing tragedy with a flippant request for your political opponents to die in concentration camps, you’ve discredited yourself better than I could have ever hoped to
If it’s mine in any meaningful way then you’ll be put in a reeducation camp, you’re clearly not ideologically committed/coherent enough to justify execution, and I think you could still contribute to society and lead a decent quality life once you’ve got your head on straight
You have literally never spoken to an oppressed person if you disregard reeducation camps. Go ask a leftist black person what they would believe about compulsory history lessons on racism and colonialism for white adults.
Yes, reeducation is a good thing for people who have been indoctrinated in ways that motivate them to subjugate and kill innocent people, your reaction to such a statement of obvious fact is the direct result of similar indoctrination. The “culture” of the US is a superficially secular imperial cult that teaches its’ adherents that it’s okay to invade and overthrow governments who don’t do what you say, that people who are homeless and starving deserve it, that anyone who disagrees is an enemy. You are a dangerous zealot.
Why are we fighting culture wars when the real enemy is Reddit and non-free social media?
This infighting seems unproductive and frankly a waste of time.
EDIT: damn
Tell this the powertripping bastards at lemmy.ml, trying to censor everything that is not 100% aligned with their extremist views.
I’ve made it 5 years without catching a ban from anywhere except some community on another instance for allegedly being anti-trans, but idk how they got that since I’m pro-trans
Yeah that’s a rule1 violation and a ban for you
Such as? What extremist views?
I like pistachio ice cream
Russia and China are beacons of freedom and prosperity, and everyone should emulate them
Well, China is a “beacon of prosperity” by any objective measure. I’ve not seen anyone there make the other claims. Though they do debunk a lot of the anti-Russia and anti-China propaganda, they back it up with facts.
Does that objective measure also happen yo include freedom of press? Because boy i have some news for you…
Revisionist facts? Whose alt is this?
No, freedom of press is not a measure of prosperity. And I don’t know many western countries that are in a position to point fingers at this point, considering how many journalists they’ve helped kill when they covered a genocide.
I don’t see how China is in a position to point fingers considering the treatment of the uyghurs
They deradicalized a sect that had been trained to destabilize the region by western intelligence, and reintegrated them into society. The facilities don’t even exist anymore, because they were successful.
What would your country do in that situation?
It’s a beacon of prosperity when there are anti suicide nets at foxcon? Or like the 996? Run by a dictator, also committing genocide isn’t very prosperous. My interactions have been " if it’s western propaganda it’s entirely false, but Chinese or Russian propaganda is entirely true"
Lifting 800 million people out of poverty is more than economic system has ever done.
What genocide?
800 million people out of poverty is a stretch but if you wanted to make that claim, it’s because the west spent so much money to get goods from China. And the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs
Yeah, where do these stupid tankies get these numbers anyway? I’m sure China says they lifted 800 million kajillion people out of poverty or whatever, but let’s see what a western source like, say, The World Bank has to say about it.
I swear these arguments get worse every day. You could just as easily say that the only reason the West has so much stuff is because China made it for them for cheap.
Wait, that’s actually a much more coherent argument lol.
You can literally go to Xinjiang and visit mosques with Uyghurs praying in them. There is no genocide.
Should they just let people kill themselves?
Is illegal
The UN did not find genocide only human rights abuses at best. You can go to China, you can go to a mosque and talk to Uyghurs there.
Meanwhile the west is funding a real genocide in Gaza. You can’t go there to film the atrocities being committed and brave people still try. Israel has killed more journalists in their genocide than ww2
Or maybe if it’s so prosperous people wouldn’t want to work in a place where they want to kill themselves.
That has never stopped authoritarian governments lol
Ok sorry ethnic cleansing isn’t genocide, sorry…
And you think I’m supporting the west’s genocide in palestine? Nah miss me with that shit
Yeah dawg I saw the source of that and I was banned in an .ml instance for saying “hows life in north Korea?” “Can’t complain” lol
America has a higher suicide rate lol
I don’t understand what you’re saying. The 996 thing does exist but it was made illegal. Sometimes private companies try to make workers do more hours illegally.
They didn’t find ethnic cleansing either. Again, you can go to Xinjiang and visit mosques with Uyghurs praying in them. So yeah ethnic cleaning ain’t happening.
You brought up the genocide to someone speaking positively of China. But the only ones doing genocide are the west. China does a bunch of bad shit it isn’t perfect but if genocide is the criteria we’re running with then China is the lesser evil.
Lol. Lmao even.
Compare for instance homelessness in china and the west. Homeownership. Access to healthcare, higher education, public transportation etc. Why do you think it’s not a beacon of prosperity?
China doesn’t have better healthcare than the US, their system is essentailly Obamacare. I’ve asked my aunts in China about it.
Homeownership? I mean that’s just white westerners mismanaging their money. Literally I heard of white dudes be spending their entire paycheck in bars and gambling, while still having unpaid bills. Look at the percentage of Asian Americans owning homes compared to non-Asians Americans, maybe its not a “China vs West” thing, but just Asian people are more responsible with money, I mean, we literally live in the same country as y’all, and as a matter of fact, we even face more discrimination and prejudice, yet somehow, Asian people have higher home ownership. No offense, and not to victim blame, but what are y’all doing? I mean… My family didn’t come from a rich background either, we grew up in poverty.
High education? I mean, depends. I had a Hukou in Taishan (rural) and was denied access to Guangzhou’s (urban) public schools. A permanent 2nd class resident basically. Even the US (prior to 2025, at least) had allowed undocumented immigrants to go to public school, yet China denied their own citizens education if they dare to move to another location even within the country. If we hadn’t moved abroad, we have to eventually go to highschool in Taishan, which has a much lower quality of education than Urban areas.
Public transportation… well you got that part right, I’ll ackowledge that. I remember Guangzhou’s metro being way more modern and cleaner than the US, and I loved the platform safety door protecting people from falling. But that doesn’t exactly matter that much when the job market is fucked. And Hukou system is fucking stupid.
The only way for China to be a “beacon of prosperity” for you is if you have some skills like being a scientist or something like that, or just born into wealth. Otherwise, its not a great place for average people.
“I asked my aunts” lol pinnacle of scholarship here
Please, don’t be ridiculous. Look at the expenditure per capita on healthcare in China vs in the USA.
The rest of your comment is pure copium, blaming working class citizens for the problems of capitalism.
They literally invented a diabetes cure, and the US is banning it to maintain insulin profits. They win healthcare.
I don’t see how corporations being allowed to buy up 1/3rd or US housing inventory is any indicator of how people manage their money.
What would you consider a beacon of prosperity then?
If its a beacon of prosperity, why are there so many people leaving? Why is there a consensus amongst the most of the Chinese Diaspora that the west is better?
(Rhetorical question, don’t bother answering)
Forbes about the topic:
Have you seen the non-.ml posts on lemmy about the unjust economy and the billionaires?
Arguing that billionaires have a better life in the west is not the flex you think it is.
My parents both grew up in poverty in rural villages, the Hukou system prevented people from leaving Taishan to seek better income, until Deng Xiaoping’s Opening Up and Reforms. Even then, jobs have much longer hours and minimal break time. I never really got to see my parents much, they just left my brother and I at home, just the two of us alone, so we end up fighting a lot. That was what “child care” was. At least until I was even old enough to be enrolled in pre-school and primary school.
Because I was the 2nd child, I didn’t get legal recognition of my existence until my parent paid the government’s demand of a large payment (aka: a "fine) for not having a government permission slip for childbirth, which is like wtf, why is that the government’s bussiness?!?
And because we didn’t have Hukou in Guangzhou, they didn’t let us be in public schools, my parents had to pay for those privately run “school” which have a lower quality of education.
When my family (legally) immigrated to the US, at first, the work wasn’t that much better, but eventually they managed to save up and buy a house, and eventually found better income, much better than any of the work they could find in China.
Of course, western countries has its own problems, such as xenophobia and racism, but for the most part, for most people, including many of my parents friends and relative who left China, life is generally better abroad compared to staying in China.
Depending on your circumstances of course, if you are a scientist, maybe its would be best for you to stay, but most of us aren’t scientists, don’t have much opportunity for income in China.
You are talking about China 30+ years ago, your point is absolutely moot.
Do you expect this to be true for the coming years?
My impression was that migrant workers don’t earn enough to own a car but that cities are build for that so that overall quality of life, especially when it comes to healthcare services, starts to be better in China.
There is not a single person on .ml who holds that obviously strawmanned view, and you don’t have a single example of it
Sure thing skip
Yup. Which is why you’re having to make shit up
You can keep telling yourself that
What is extremist about that?
Yearning for a dictatorship is generally considered an extreme opinion.
Wanting the 99% in charge as opposed to the current 1% is the opposite of yearning for a dictatorship. That’s yearning for its destruction.
I yearn for direct democracy and self-rule.
If you were classically educated, you’d know the meme is about Sortition vs Elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition). The idea is that you can’t have democracy when you have to vote for your representative, because rich families will manipulate the election process. The better solution to pick your Senate would be to randomly select group representatives and have them cooperate.
And that was what Greece philosophers like Aristotle thought ~2300 years ago. Actually all sources we have suggest that Greeks from that era though that elections are undemocratic, and only sortition can provide true democracy.
Seems to be true today when we vote, we pick between turds, and nothing changes for the better. <- and that’s what meme is about
Side note: Carlin was right, you get educated only enough to be able to work for your masters.
How many people looking at that meme even knew about ancient Greeks shitting on elections in favour of sortition and went there, instead of thinking “elections bad? You must want to have a king, you authoritarian swine”
Without elections you get to have kings and emperors. Unless you go full on direct democracy which actually is becoming more feasible thanks to the Internet I guess?
The point is that a system where you just vote for a guy every four years won’t change anything because the rich are in charge and have all the power.
Without having the people in power there can’t be democracy.
And what’s the system where people are in power without elections?
Ancient Greek democracy, where they used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition (picking representatives at random).
If you’re USian, your jury is like sortition.
Direct democracy. We have the infrastructure and tech to enable this with liquid democracy platforms.
Yep. We need direct democracy, using an auditable digital liquid democracy platform.
They’re right
This is Lemmy, nothing here is significant enough to be part of a true culture war.
Also, this community is for memes so maybe don’t take it too seriously either
I’m not going to say it
Notgonnasayit
JUDEAN PEOPLE’S FRONT!!
There, I said it
My dude this is the Peoples Front of Judea territory
How do you feel about my right as a man to become pregnant?
It’s like your right to fly.
We’re fighting the same people — fascists. These ones are just cosplaying as leftists
as opposed to what pressing matters the community has on our plate?
dude it’s internet slap fighting, everything that happens here is on such a small scale that it’s barely a culture skirmish
Reddit and other non-free social media is the result of capitalism, have you considered similar negative effects would occur if the opposite world view was in power?
Reddit is part of the culture war. Lemmy.ml is part of the culture war. Lemmy.world is part of the culture war. Everything is part of the culture war.
Because .world is trying to be the next Reddit, which is why they’re working so hard to monopolize the fediverse and demonise other instances
I think the strength of a federated social media is that it’s easy to change instance and infighting is a way to have this discussion and come to conclusions. You wouldn’t convince people to leave reddit by posting on lemmy and you wouldn’t turn a tankie into an anarchosyndicalist but you might reach people unaware about what instance they landed on or raise awareness about how to interact with communities and users on .ml. Why have a federated network anyway when you refuse to engage with the concept of federation?
Tankies are authoritarians, they aren’t allies. Historically they’re the ones killing leftists as soon as they gain power.
By defeating Tsarism, Nazism and doubling life expectancy, Bolsheviks actually saved tens of millions of leftist lives. In the same sense that you probably (hopefully) support Palestine even if right now they’re not very socially progressive regarding leftism, LGBT and women’s rights, you may understand why a state under the threat of Nazism invading went through serious disturbances.
The real enemy is authoritarianists.
Hilarious. Trivialize some real life tragic shit. You sound like a great person. Get deleted in a concentration camp for me.
You’re probably talking about Gulags. GULAG was the prison system of the USSS, with its primary intent being reform of criminals. The vast majority of GULAG prisoners weren’t political, as has transpired from modern historiography and analysis of the Soviet Archives. The only moment of history in which the GULAG system had a high mortality, was during the famine caused by Nazi invasion of the USSR, invasion in which 25 million Soviet lives were extinguished in the struggle against fascism. Before, and after the invasion, mortality rates went down to being much lower.
Talking of the GULAG system as of concentration camps just shows that you have done no research on the topic, which is shameful as a leftist. Socialism must be well-informed and materialist, not vibes-based. There is criticism that can be made of socialism, but it has to be grounded on reality if we want it to be effective, not grounded on CIA propaganda.
Average “anti-authoritarian” when presented with actual left wing views.
I’m not making or endorsing them. I just think if you’re going to make them then you deserve to be in one.
Lol@ following up your feigned outrage at trivializing tragedy with a flippant request for your political opponents to die in concentration camps, you’ve discredited yourself better than I could have ever hoped to
It’s your concentration camp, not mine. I’m just asking that you get everything you ever asked for. I care about you ♥️
If it’s mine in any meaningful way then you’ll be put in a reeducation camp, you’re clearly not ideologically committed/coherent enough to justify execution, and I think you could still contribute to society and lead a decent quality life once you’ve got your head on straight
this guy defending reeducation camps. Lemmy be wild
You have literally never spoken to an oppressed person if you disregard reeducation camps. Go ask a leftist black person what they would believe about compulsory history lessons on racism and colonialism for white adults.
Yes, reeducation is a good thing for people who have been indoctrinated in ways that motivate them to subjugate and kill innocent people, your reaction to such a statement of obvious fact is the direct result of similar indoctrination. The “culture” of the US is a superficially secular imperial cult that teaches its’ adherents that it’s okay to invade and overthrow governments who don’t do what you say, that people who are homeless and starving deserve it, that anyone who disagrees is an enemy. You are a dangerous zealot.