And if they have the number you claim they do they should do so anyway and get some of their voice in office. It will be very helpful. Really what you are saying is that you have a very popular movement that is choosing to squander a major part of how influence is exercised. “Yeah we have lots of members who are willing to do all this much harder protest. Ohh no we are not willing to take an afternoon to vote as left as possible at least and certainly not make a formal party”. Really stop and thinking about what you are saying.
Like I said, if you have the numbers it is clear that you are a real movement and you pulling more effort into telling me why you won’t show up is telling that you don’t and that you don’t want to. Which is ironic that earlier you called out Geneva for only being interested in online activism.
And if they have the number you claim they do they should do so anyway and get some of their voice in office. It will be very helpful.
I haven’t claimed any numbers, I’ve claimed growth. Secondly, Marxists are systemically shunned and prevented from actually running in any real sense. PSL tries, but is often kicked out of elections and off of ballots. This is the proof behind me saying that treating elections as a tool for change that can even work in the first place is futile.
Really what you are saying is that you have a very popular movement that is choosing to squander a major part of how influence is exercised.
No? I’m saying that PSL is growing, despite lacking an element you deem crucial (electoral success). They aren’t choosing to squander anything, they are outright systemically rooted out from the electoral process by the legal system.
"Yeah we have lots of members who are willing to do all this much harder protest. Ohh no we are not willing to take an afternoon to vote as left as possible at least and certainly not make a formal party”. Really stop and thinking about what you are saying.
PSL is already a formal party. Taking an afternoon to vote however you want is going to have absolutely minimal impact on whether or not PSL grows, or the standpoint of their power.
Like I said, if you have the numbers it is clear that you are a real movement and you pulling more effort into telling me why you won’t show up is telling that you don’t and that you don’t want to. Which is ironic that earlier you called out Geneva for only being interested in online activism.
How is this ironic? You’re continuing to see electoralism as the primary vehicle for change, and not organizing, striking, protesting, unionizing, agitating, and more. Do you consider all of those to be less than voting? If so, can you show where socialism has been solidified electorally? I can show you numerous countries where focusing on the areas PSL does has established socialism successfully, and 0 where voting has done so.
How is this ironic? You’re continuing to see electoralism as the primary vehicle for change
See I never said it was the primary way for change. That is you putting words in my mouth. I am saying that it is an important part to helping us get changed; particularly in the short term and to get as much legislation leaning as left as possible. Ignoring election is to not resist fascist and just let them waltz in without resistance.
Do you consider all of those to be less than voting?
Not at all, but if you can’t get your group to vote; which is comparatively easy in the west then you have little credibility of doing the harder stuff. Which is where most ml are. No credability and purity politics (like here you are trying to make it seem I don’t want change when i am reaching out to you to also participate in these methods with me as well, but you don’t want to get your white shirt dirty or something).
See I never said it was the primary way for change. That is you putting words in my mouth. I am saying that it is an important part to helping us get changed;
Electoralism cannot get change. I’ve explained how and why, and you have not explained why you think, for the first time in history, we can get meaningful change via electoralism.
particularly in the short term and to get as much legislation leaning as left as possible.
When the candidates are pre-filtered, a filter that blocks groups like PSL, you cannot actually shift legislation. Instead, what impacts legislation is the level of millitancy and organization of the working classes. The state votes against the interests of the working classes, and for the interests of the capitalists.
Ignoring election is to not resist fascist and just let them waltz in without resistance.
Fascism has never been stopped at the ballot box. Fascism rises as a result of capitalist decay, and is stopped by force historically. Whether the DNC or GOP wins, fascism remains.
Not at all, but if you can’t get your group to vote; which is comparatively easy in the west then you have little credibility of doing the harder stuff.
This doesn’t follow. If voting isn’t allowed to change anything, then people are more likely to be apathetic about it. I’ve seen many people in the streets, protesting, striking, that did not vote or voted third party.
Which is where most ml are. No credability and purity politics (like here you are trying to make it seem I don’t want change when i am reaching out to you to also participate in these methods with me as well, but you don’t want to get your white shirt dirty or something).
No? I’m telling you to stop trying a failed and impossible strategy that has never worked in history, and telling you to roll up your sleeves and get involved in party building and organizing in real life, if you aren’t already. If you are, then great, vote if it makes you happy. If you aren’t, then you’re just repeating the same mistakes reformists have been making for centuries.
Electoralism cannot get change. I’ve explained how and why, and you have not explained why you think, for the first time in history, we can get meaningful change via electoralism.
And because you don’t show up in anycase you won’t get change either.
Ok just to preface I am not amerikkkan so outside looking on on your many issues.
But genuine question how do you see an ml? Can you read their mind? Or do you expect them to label themselves as such on a name tag or sign? What of the people who are for all intents and purposes ml but simply don’t take on the label for one reason or another? Feels like you’re making a lot of assumptions based on vibes.
Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?
Spreading agit-prop, showing up for “protests” (parades in the American case from what I’ve seen (this is a whole separate tangent I could go on)) and generally teaching arming and doing socialist work seems much more valuable use of time. Not hyper familiar with American orgs so I would defer to the likes of cowbee to explain in detail what the orgs are actually doing with the saved resources.
Well the server you are on ends in .ml to mean marxist lenninist, so yeah they are kind of labeled.
Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?
Im not going to repeat too much, but you can read more with my chat with @[email protected] on here. You do make a good point. It is a marathon and those take prep, but so does everything else we are doing. You are going to be reaching out and canvasing for your community food bank, your protests, and strikes. You don’t have to go all out with spending money, but formalizing yourself into your own party, which we should, marks us as real players and able to make an unset election if we are not taken into some consideration.
Outside of elections we still have some formal places to coordinate our outreach and keep putting our name out there.
@[email protected] makes it out like I am saying we should only vote, but note I am not saying that. I am saying that ignoring elections is foolish of us.
No, I absolutely show up, to protests, organizing, and other real-life methods of gaining real change and growing organizational power. It’s not that voting doesn’t work because Marxists don’t vote, it’s that Marxists don’t emphasize voting because we know it doesn’t work.
Very nice that you are an outlier, but that does not change my point in the slightest.
Consider this. Installing Linux is rather easy, but you do have to make an installer. Most people won’t and that becomes a filter. If you can’t get people to care enough to vote they are very likely not going to do anything else.
it’s that Marxists don’t emphasize voting because we know it doesn’t work.
enjoy losing out on more influence at the discussion table.
To the contrary, this is the mainstream Marxist opinion. You’re fighting strawmen.
Consider this. Installing Linux is rather easy, but you do have to make an installer. Most people won’t and that becomes a filter. If you can’t get people to care enough to vote they are very likely not going to do anything else.
We don’t need everyone to join the communist party. Instead, we need the party to gain the trust of the people and become the people’s chosen party.
This method is tried and true.
enjoy losing out on more influence at the discussion table.
You haven’t proven this, and are more proving my point. If you personally are not organizing in real life, and instead just voting and hoping other people do all of the hard work for you, then you aren’t doing anything at all.
What proof do you need that a massive and visible movement will have influence? That group being able to coordinate to show up for an election is also a demonstration that they can show up for other events like protests and strikes. It also shows the movement that they do infact have the strength. It shows the opposition that you do in fact have to be taken seriously. Like I have said all along, elections help build credibility. Not sure what proof you need on such an obvious statement.
And if they have the number you claim they do they should do so anyway and get some of their voice in office. It will be very helpful. Really what you are saying is that you have a very popular movement that is choosing to squander a major part of how influence is exercised. “Yeah we have lots of members who are willing to do all this much harder protest. Ohh no we are not willing to take an afternoon to vote as left as possible at least and certainly not make a formal party”. Really stop and thinking about what you are saying.
Like I said, if you have the numbers it is clear that you are a real movement and you pulling more effort into telling me why you won’t show up is telling that you don’t and that you don’t want to. Which is ironic that earlier you called out Geneva for only being interested in online activism.
I haven’t claimed any numbers, I’ve claimed growth. Secondly, Marxists are systemically shunned and prevented from actually running in any real sense. PSL tries, but is often kicked out of elections and off of ballots. This is the proof behind me saying that treating elections as a tool for change that can even work in the first place is futile.
No? I’m saying that PSL is growing, despite lacking an element you deem crucial (electoral success). They aren’t choosing to squander anything, they are outright systemically rooted out from the electoral process by the legal system.
PSL is already a formal party. Taking an afternoon to vote however you want is going to have absolutely minimal impact on whether or not PSL grows, or the standpoint of their power.
How is this ironic? You’re continuing to see electoralism as the primary vehicle for change, and not organizing, striking, protesting, unionizing, agitating, and more. Do you consider all of those to be less than voting? If so, can you show where socialism has been solidified electorally? I can show you numerous countries where focusing on the areas PSL does has established socialism successfully, and 0 where voting has done so.
See I never said it was the primary way for change. That is you putting words in my mouth. I am saying that it is an important part to helping us get changed; particularly in the short term and to get as much legislation leaning as left as possible. Ignoring election is to not resist fascist and just let them waltz in without resistance.
Not at all, but if you can’t get your group to vote; which is comparatively easy in the west then you have little credibility of doing the harder stuff. Which is where most
mlare. No credability and purity politics (like here you are trying to make it seem I don’t want change when i am reaching out to you to also participate in these methods with me as well, but you don’t want to get your white shirt dirty or something).Electoralism cannot get change. I’ve explained how and why, and you have not explained why you think, for the first time in history, we can get meaningful change via electoralism.
When the candidates are pre-filtered, a filter that blocks groups like PSL, you cannot actually shift legislation. Instead, what impacts legislation is the level of millitancy and organization of the working classes. The state votes against the interests of the working classes, and for the interests of the capitalists.
Fascism has never been stopped at the ballot box. Fascism rises as a result of capitalist decay, and is stopped by force historically. Whether the DNC or GOP wins, fascism remains.
This doesn’t follow. If voting isn’t allowed to change anything, then people are more likely to be apathetic about it. I’ve seen many people in the streets, protesting, striking, that did not vote or voted third party.
No? I’m telling you to stop trying a failed and impossible strategy that has never worked in history, and telling you to roll up your sleeves and get involved in party building and organizing in real life, if you aren’t already. If you are, then great, vote if it makes you happy. If you aren’t, then you’re just repeating the same mistakes reformists have been making for centuries.
And because you don’t show up in anycase you won’t get change either.
The so-called democratic system in modern states is usually monopolized by the bourgeoisie and has become simply an instrument for oppressing the common people.
Chairman Mao pushing the people to voting the Japanese imperialists and KMT fascists off the mainland:
I don’t see mls driving out ICE from MN. Why would they? They can’t even be bothered to vote; much less something that takes even more effort.
Here is PSL organizing strikes and protests to kick ICE out of MN. Stop fighting strawmen.
Many groups are mentioned. Its not clear they are all mls.
Ok just to preface I am not amerikkkan so outside looking on on your many issues.
But genuine question how do you see an ml? Can you read their mind? Or do you expect them to label themselves as such on a name tag or sign? What of the people who are for all intents and purposes ml but simply don’t take on the label for one reason or another? Feels like you’re making a lot of assumptions based on vibes.
Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?
Spreading agit-prop, showing up for “protests” (parades in the American case from what I’ve seen (this is a whole separate tangent I could go on)) and generally teaching arming and doing socialist work seems much more valuable use of time. Not hyper familiar with American orgs so I would defer to the likes of cowbee to explain in detail what the orgs are actually doing with the saved resources.
Well the server you are on ends in .ml to mean marxist lenninist, so yeah they are kind of labeled.
Im not going to repeat too much, but you can read more with my chat with @[email protected] on here. You do make a good point. It is a marathon and those take prep, but so does everything else we are doing. You are going to be reaching out and canvasing for your community food bank, your protests, and strikes. You don’t have to go all out with spending money, but formalizing yourself into your own party, which we should, marks us as real players and able to make an unset election if we are not taken into some consideration.
Outside of elections we still have some formal places to coordinate our outreach and keep putting our name out there.
@[email protected] makes it out like I am saying we should only vote, but note I am not saying that. I am saying that ignoring elections is foolish of us.
No, I absolutely show up, to protests, organizing, and other real-life methods of gaining real change and growing organizational power. It’s not that voting doesn’t work because Marxists don’t vote, it’s that Marxists don’t emphasize voting because we know it doesn’t work.
Very nice that you are an outlier, but that does not change my point in the slightest.
Consider this. Installing Linux is rather easy, but you do have to make an installer. Most people won’t and that becomes a filter. If you can’t get people to care enough to vote they are very likely not going to do anything else.
enjoy losing out on more influence at the discussion table.
To the contrary, this is the mainstream Marxist opinion. You’re fighting strawmen.
We don’t need everyone to join the communist party. Instead, we need the party to gain the trust of the people and become the people’s chosen party.
This method is tried and true.
You haven’t proven this, and are more proving my point. If you personally are not organizing in real life, and instead just voting and hoping other people do all of the hard work for you, then you aren’t doing anything at all.
What proof do you need that a massive and visible movement will have influence? That group being able to coordinate to show up for an election is also a demonstration that they can show up for other events like protests and strikes. It also shows the movement that they do infact have the strength. It shows the opposition that you do in fact have to be taken seriously. Like I have said all along, elections help build credibility. Not sure what proof you need on such an obvious statement.