What’s mainly depressing is that so many people think that every religion is exactly like Christianity, but with a different object of worship and a slightly different flavor of supernatural belief. They don’t know anything about philosophy, they haven’t examined their own beliefs, they just parrot whatever pop science they’ve heard last and think that somehow gives answers to metaphysical questions.
Read some philosophy, people. Examine your own beliefs a bit. I’ve just recently seen a bunch of Lemmings who I’m sure consider themselves very rational and scientific freak out at the idea of not having free will, and by extension, there not being absolute good and evil. They can’t even argue about it, they just immediately fall into ad hominem attacks and strawmanning. Bring in the fact that whatever virtue one thinks they have is just the result of genetic lottery, and suddenly the idea of some kind of an untarnished soul becomes awfully tempting. Dare to suggest that nobody is inherently evil and boy do people get mad because their favorite pasttime of judging others has been called into question. Yet these same people often consider themselves above religious folk because they actually think that their worldview is purely science based and not at all colored by what they just want to be true.
Oh, not to even mention questioning if matter is the fundamental aspect of reality (as opposed to consciousness). Many people with 0 understanding of philosophy will start arguing about this and then get mad because they can’t prove that there’s matter outside consciousness. They’ll do the science equivalent of saying “God is real because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God so it must be true”. Matter is fundamental because my scientific framework that is built on the idea that matter is fundamental says so (it actually doesn’t, because again, so embarrassingly many people don’t even realize that science has never answered a single metaphysical question).
Unless you have spent several years with philosophy and actually scrutinized your own beliefs honestly, you are likely living in just as much fantasy as most religious people. In some cases, more so.
And because I’ve hit my quota for entertaining poor arguments for now: if you want to argue, unless you can provide scientific proof for the existence of free will, absolute good and evil or matter being fundamental, I may not reply.
Ultimately I think the subtext of it is, “I’m really scared of the uncertainty of existence and want a circular explanation to ease my anxiety about death”. The rest springs from that fundamental fear because someone claiming to have that answer can sell it for any price including blind loyalty.
I have always been a little bit jealous of people who can be sold on religion. It must be nice to have the comfort that comes with it, especially if you’re the type to ignore all the rules and think that you’re going to the good place just because you had faith.
I am not scared of dying exactly, I’m afraid that something might come after when I just want to sleep. What if a religion got it right? Good place or bad, I’m not down with that. I want finality in my end.
That’s my fear too. I was under high stress from work, woke up from deep sleep one night with chest pain. Really felt like a heart attack, and the only thing I could think was “Thank fuck it’s finally over,” then the most peaceful calm I’ve ever experienced washed over me, and I fell back to sleep.
Now I have recurring anxiety when I think of death, because what if the Buddhists got it right? What if I find peace again when my time comes, just to be thrown back through this shit??
That’s a legitimate fear IMO.
Never insinuated it wasnt a real fear. Just that it was being used against those who haven’t faced it
I guess that’s true for many. However, there is also a possibility to face it and then “handle it” by taking Pascal’s wager.
In my opinion non-existence is in the center of the fear. If you stop existing after death whatever you decide to do now doesn’t matter any more. If you believe in existence after death (part of most religions) and it makes you happy, why not?
True that there are extremist sects of almost any religions and religion is a common cause of fights but I think that’s more rare nowadays and many mainstream religious organizations preach peace and tolerance.
I actually think the way you are framing non-existence is exactly what I mean. I’m happy my existence and my choices are ultimately inconsequential. I can define my own meaning because all meaning is arbitrary. That difference in perspective is the key.
That feeling of freedom works only if you believe in non-existence after death. The thought that ones choices are inconsequential might (in some people) also lead to harmful behavior (eg harming later generations with environmental destruction etc). I don’t mean to say it’s going to happen, I just think on a society level it could lead to just as many issues as religious beliefs.
However, whatever one believes it shouldn’t be due to doctrine, it should be the result of an active thought process.
To me you have it completely backwards. The fear comes from the unwillingness to accept the possibility of non-existence and ultimately the pointlessness of one’s life that pins oneself into needing to believe in an afterlife. Its not that I believe there’s nothing after, it’s that I dont give a fuck either way
It’s good that you don’t give a fuck but not everyone is able to be that way. So if you give fucks and a religion makes you feel better, why not?
Aren’t most people born into religion?
Everyone is born into the world entirely ignorant. Cultures, customs, languages, and superstitions espoused by their parents, teachers, and peers are adopted as a matter of survival. And as the individual develops more autonomy, they use the information they gathered in their youth to navigate into new cultures and belief systems, in pursuit of improved material conditions.
You can be born into a Catholic family and become Atheist just as easily as you can be born into an Atheist family and become Catholic. What has driven the modern collapse in religiosity is - at least in my view - the mass migration driven by economic expansion and ecological collapse. People aren’t just waking up one day and deciding they aren’t gullible anymore. They’re being shuffled around by tidal forces and torn away from the historical cultures and infrastructure that had reproduced their families’ beliefs.
As a kid, my mom was deeply Catholic and tried to get us to attend church. But we moved several times, and after each move we found ourselves at a new church (often not even a Catholic church) with an alien congregation and divergent dogma. So what had rooted her and her sisters and parents and grandparents in Catholicism never took root with me or my sister.
By contrast, my wife’s family lived in Galveston for four generations. Virtually her entire family is devote practicing Catholics. She only slipped through the cracks because… her dad moved around a lot, particularly after her parents got divorced. Everyone else - even two of her transgender cousins - are still practicing. Churches are, at their heart, social institutions. And I think modern New Atheists often miss that fact in their quest to Own The Dumb Pious Folks.
Oh sure you can become anything you want, but I’d argue if you’re born into a religious family initially you just adopt it. Not as a matter of survival, but as a world view that is provided to you, you just accept it as facts initially, because you don’t know anything. Compare it to how most kids initially believe Santa Claus exists because they were told so. Eventually you come to a point where you either challenge it or continue. You can also participate in some church community stuff without being a member or even going to church.
if you’re born into a religious family initially you just adopt it
Right. Because there’s no inherent reason not to do so. And little kids tend to want to follow along with what they’re elders are doing.
Compare it to how most kids initially believe Santa Claus exists because they were told so.
Kids are told that they get presents by pleasing their parents. And then the decision making / agency is displaced onto a fictitious figure. That’s a very neat analogy for religion in the aggregate. Whether or not you “believe in Santa”, you’re still getting gifts based on your parents’ resources and generosity. If you want the newest kids’ favorite widget, you’re following the letter of the law whether or not you adhere to the spirit.
You can also participate in some church community stuff without being a member or even going to church.
If you’ve got friends/family who are members/do go, sure. Because they’re your social connection.
But you’ll struggle to join a community event if you don’t know anybody - or even when/where the event takes place. Nevermind knowing what’s in the works, what needs volunteers, what needs money, and who is in charge of leading them. The more you want to participate, the more you need to attend the religious church functions. The more you want to get into leadership, the more you need to demonstrate your piety.
I lament that I have but one upvote to give.
Yea I personally don’t know anybody who became religious. I’m sure it happens, but it’s gotta be super rare
One my sisters did. she was re-born around 18.
I mad her angry when I said she was impressionable.
Only if you pick one that isn’t true.
We’ll see who gets the last laugh when I’m looking down on the rest of you from the righteous kingdom of Jibbers Crabst, the magic space lobster!
Because 🦞GOD🦞 made that butthole.
THAT’S the most interesting part! I love examining this, yeah it’s using cultural stories and kind of grey psychology to cause specific behaviors.
Ironically this is also where I think faith can be somewhat redeemed. If you start looking past the dogma to the specific intentions, yes a lot if it is shitty and it’s all manipulative but also on some level it’s trying to get people to act in pro-social ways. Specifically ones who normally could not be fucked to act pro-socially without some kind of supernatural threat aimed at them.
I got into Hebrew discourse lately because they’re kind of cognizant of that and so their religion is a constant conversation with their history. They’re constantly reinterpreting what it means to be Jewish in this moment of time and have a perspective that has to stand on the idea that there’s a highly likely chance that it’s all made up.
Religion was most useful to us when it was used to reign in kings who feared nothing except the wrath of God. It was, in fact, quite effective at that and I think we’re largely better off for it. That use case has outlived its usefulness by now though.
Ooh excellent point! 👆👆👆👆
Username checks out.
Same with Marxism. Or owning a Tesla car decade ago. All these were cults for gullible people
