SlAvA UkrAnI!
Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden in Ukraine during martial law, which is only still in effect because Russia is still invading. If anyone canceled Ukrainian elections, it’s Putin because the choice for Ukraine was either submit and lose elections permanently or resist and enact martial law, losing them temporarily.
Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden
Russia is clearly after the Donbass, not all of Ukraine. Elections will persist even after the almost certain conclusion, that being full annexing of the 4 oblasts. This is the sensible outcome, considering western Ukraine coup’d the president supported by the Donbass region in a Banderite takeover:
Since the Banderite coup in 2014, Ukraine has been in a civil war where Kiev has been ethnically cleansing the Donbass region. The Minsk agreements were both tanked by Ukraine and the west, meaning diplomatic solutions to the Civil War were tried, and failed.
If Russia is clearly only after Donbass, why did they open by trying to seize the capital?
Leverage my man
They didn’t seriously try to take the capital, and even if by miracle they did, the purpose is to end the war then and there. Right now they are focusing on attrition, wearing Ukraine down slowly.
If it is so, why are they bombing and loosing personnel in Sumy or Kharkiv?
Do you think in war you only attack what you directly plan on taking?
- Even when you routinely bomb civilians?
- In your logic there’s nothing that can disapprove your position. Good luck Mr. Gorsky.
Are you referring to Kiev shelling civilians in the Donbass region for 8 years, prompting Russia’s entry into the war? Also, no clue why you’re calling me Mr. Gorsky, are you accusing me of being Russian just because I think the people in Donetsk and Luhansk are human?
Oh boy the reddit imperialists are angry with this one
Yeah, people get irritable about misinformation on their front page, like when someone falsely claims Zelenskyy canceled elections.
Not false, you’re losing
And before that he banned opposition parties
From the latest Perceptions of Democracy index, from NIRA Data:
Ukrainians are among the most skeptical of the democratic processes in their country. Meanwhile, even a country as hotly contested as Venezuela, faith in elections is skyrocketing. And this is gathered by a western org run by a NATO official.
As always, I would like to point out that these kinds of surveys of public opinion are not really evidence of anything besides public opinion itself.
You cannot assert that a certain country has more or less of some quality simply because more people in that country said they think they do more frequently than people in a different country did.
For example if you asked Americans (particularly those in the south or rural areas) if they thought their country was more “free” than the rest of the world, you would probably get higher numbers than you would from most other regions of the world despite the fact that America is not that free relative to much of the world.
Trends in perception, as well as comparison, does tell a good story. In many ways it’s a superior method of data gathering on democracy than the standard method of defining democracy as whatever the Nordics are doing, and then grading everyone based on how closely they follow that.
Direct comparison of perception of democracy by people who have lived in both countries would be much clearer evidence of differences in democracy itself.
However, the raw perception of democracy without any other reference to other democracies does not allow for comparison/measurement of democracy itself but rather indicates how happy individuals feel within their current democracy.
The data is a good story and it does encode information, but that information is more significantly influenced by culture, current events, and overall happiness of the populace than it is by “level of democracy”
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If you follow the comment chain you’ll see me and cowbee talk about how subjective the term “democracy” is.
However, we can illustrate my point using proof by counter example. It is entirely possible to imagine two countries with the same government structure (and hence “democracy”) but with different answers to this kind of survey.
Imagine two nearly identical countries each with corrupt governments having the exact same structure and culture etc. The only major difference between them is that in one of the countries, a recent scandal has occurred which was able to bring to light deep seated corruption and criminal activity of many public figures, whereas similar acts are being committed by the govt. of the other country, but none of it has been brought so fully to light yet.
The citizens of the former country are likely to rank their “democracy” lower than the citizens of the latter would rate their own, despite the fact both governments have equal amounts of corruption. Hence, surveys of popular opinion of democracy are not directly indicative of the “level of democracy” or level of corruption or fidelity etc. etc… QED.
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Sure. When I mean comparison, I mean in trends. If a country scores lower in one year while another scores higher, and this trend repeats, it’s a sign of improving and decaying conditions. Democracy isn’t really something you can measure directly, which makes the entire subject pretty muddy.
that’s why I put quotes around “level of democracy.” If everyone in a country had to vote directly for any and all government action, that is kind of the purest democracy possible, but it would not be a very effective method of government especially for large countries.
In order to rank democracy in a meaningful way, one would need to decide on what the desired outcomes of a “good” democracy are and which outcomes are most important etc. which would make the scale subjective.
Even that would not be democratic, as it ignores the role of ownership of production and distribution. In a capitalist economy, such would still be subject to the same mechanisms preventing bourgeois democracy from following the will of the proletariat.
So would you say, that actively hostile imperialist western nations and their propaganda apparatus know more about democracy in Venezuela than Venezuelans?
For example if you asked Americans (particularly those in the south or rural areas) if they thought their country was more “free” than the rest of the world, you would probably get higher numbers than you would from most other regions of the world
Maybe this data will surprise you then:
Spain behind the US? LOL
Haha funnily enough that’s the graph I first had this argument with cowbee about lol
Exactly, its just anecdotal evidence on a bigger scale
Canceling elections is totally fine if it’s our guy
What part of martial law do you not understand?
A country being invaded can be and will be overthrown if possible. In fact, it’s been done many times in European imperialist history.
That’s why the clause exists, even before democracy was normalized in Europe. Just find someone else in line for procession and install a puppet prince.
It’s even been abused. Some speculate that Trump would trigger martial law to stay in office - or even Netenyahu himself clinging to power.
In the end you don’t want a captured government. That’s also historically been really bad.
Letting democracy exist is bad because then the government might change hands.
Gotcha.
Read history, bro - instead of suckling at the feet of Putin. Martial law does not exclude democracy, as democracy is more than national elections and representative democracy (not that you’d know anything about that) - but a change in government can actively sabotage defences and weaken a nation to be overrun by a foreign agressor 👏 while 👏 the 👏 nation 👏 is 👏 being 👏 invaded.
But tell me how Maripol being leveled is somehow good for renovation plans.
Ukraine already has a captured government. 😜
I don’t see any blue states going along with any potential attempts by Trump to cancel the election. There is literally nobody who is going to invade mainland USA in the next 3 years. It’s just not in the cards. In Ukraine, women my age notice that 10% of their dating pool is gone (dead, moved abroad, missing?). The average US citizen is going to experience whatever obvious false flag, just something less impactful than 2020s “wearing masks”, even if that’s literally a drone strike from Latin America, and they’re going to cancel elections over it?
I still think their play is that if Trump is succeeded by another Republican or if Trump himself becomes too unpopular, they coup him, and we wind up with a military junta. The libs would be so busy applauding their ‘saviors’ that they wouldn’t even notice their rights being taken away until it’s too late. I think the capitalists are tired of democracy, and want to be able to drop the pretenses without ceding control.
Just for factual correctness (don’t actually care about your opinion) - no Israeli election was cancelled. Bibi himself lost an election in 2020.
Ukraine being less democratic than Israel is not the gotcha its supporters expected
As I said, not going for any gacha. Also not versed enough on Ukraine politics to comment. Just saying that no Israeli election was cancelled (we’re going to have one in a couple of months).
Decided a while ago I don’t want to get into internet arguments, big waste of time which can be used for more significant things.
I didn’t even meant to argue, just wanted to put it into perspective for lurkers. We could even go further and note that there is huge support for genocide in various forms and methods in Israel, but Zelensky got explicitly elected on his promises of deescalating and stopping the civil war.
He didn’t suspend elections. However he did rig them
Ukraine needs to have elections
The thing is their constitution states that during a time of war they can’t.
Abraham Lincoln was given a choice to not hold elections during the American civil war but he understood the war is at the will of the people. Are we afraid the Ukrainian people will vote against the war?
You can’t let a pesky volk get in the way of the endsieg
From NIRA data.
Great. Then have an election!
Again under martial law there cannot be elections, and I highly doubt ending martial law now would have a good outcome.
Well, that’s an insta-block.
so much pro russian propaganda in the meme channel, crazy
Actually, the opposite.
Crazy to see many imperialist supporters trying to justify Western capitalist puppets/allies
I’m not saying the US is good, that’s classic whataboutism.
You made a classic ad hominem attack since you had no proper response to the meme.
I replied to see your reaction and it confirms it then.
I’m not sure you know what ad hominem means.
Attacking the person and not the point?
Should I have termed it as ‘Poisoning the well’ or something else?
What term would you have used?An ad hominem would be to dismiss an argument by attacking the person or circumstances. You know, like calling someone a Russian bot.
Secondly, I think you missed the point of the image. You claim to believe America is bad, but simultaneosly adopt it’s views on geopolitical rivals uncritically. Yes, including the view that anything that portrays the west in a negative light being “Russian propaganda”. Funnily enough, that’s the real ad hominem and is something incredibly common to hear coming out of liberals.
Did you mistake me for the original commentor?
While that is correct, it’s not what the comment you replied to did. There’s no criticisim to you as a person. It simply says that the argument reads as “whataboutism” so yup, your reply doesn’t really make sense.
Are you isolating that comment alone, while ignoring the original comment? I was talking about that one. Not any towards me, but the original OP.
I mentioned that they did not have any response, other than trying to poison the well and implying stuff about the memes community, OP and other posters.
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This is just Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy for liberals.
eh, prettt sure most of that is the US punching itself in the face
agreed, it all sucks
Laundering your talking points as text on an image does not a meme make
That’s literally what a political meme is
I was being kind to this low effort post
lol if you think Venezuela is not a dictatorship.
Venezuela is more democratic than western countries. Why is it that westerners demonize revolutionaries for not following the political process, and demonize electoralists for following the political process anyways? Because both are threats to capital.
…maybe because many westerners are worried about losing their democracy? I mean, when democracies Fall, they usually don’t make room for better democracies, historically speaking.
Westerners in general don’t have democracy, capitalists have democracy in the west. That’s why the implementation of socialism is necessary, bringing democracy to the working classes and kicking out the capitalists.
Just because the majority of the people in a country disagree with you doesn’t mean it’s not a democracy. In many western countries there are (still) free and fair elections. This is verifiable. But democracy lives off of active participation, and there are people (read: fascists) who see democracy as a threat and do everything they can to sow FUD in order to reduce election participation.
That’s literally exactly what that means you fucking moron
Elections are not indicative of democracy. The fact that capital is what determines which parties are viable, what candidates are allowed to run, and controls the entire economy means that elections in capitalism are more of a pressure valve than an actual way to get your voice across. Capitalism is incompatible with working class democracy.
How the hell are elections not indicative of democracy? I mean, just because you have elections doesn’t mean you have a proper democracy (e.g. if there is only one party available), but how those elections are run says a lot. They’re the core of any democracy. Democracy is, by definition, the people being ruled by the people. So you need some form of governance that is accountable to the people.
And capital is far from the only thing that determines if parties are viable. Yes, it plays too much of a role (especially in the US, but there are many western countries that aren’t the US), but let’s not pretend it’s some mysterious being that decides everything. That ignores so many important factors.
Elections aren’t democracy, as you said democracy is rule by the majority. Pluralism, the ability to choose between parties, isn’t actually democracy either. A single party system can be more democratic if it’s a consultative democracy and reflects the will of the majority, like how it works in China (though China obviously has many, many elections). That also doesn’t mean pluralism is inherently antidemocratic, countries like the DPRK have multiple political parties with seats (even if the majority are held by the WPK), just that the will of the majority be upheld.
In capitalism, a tiny class of people controls the most essential means of production and distribution for society. The state represents their interests, and any parties that exist must represent them, or instead have strong grassroots support and work against the state (such as the Bolsheviks). Choosing between any number of capitalist parties doesn’t mean workers are going to be represented. No western country represents the will of the majority.
Capitalism is not some mysterious being, its a phenomenon and it is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. If the workplace was democratized then you would not have capitalism.
Lol you still believe what the Epstein Burger Reich tells you about other countries, that’s fucking embarassing
They literally had an election and it was a very close run thing we’re the US backed puppet nearly won.
But yeah, sure, it’s a dictatorship, whatever…
The elección was rigged and there even was mathematical evidence of it. That’s ignoring that Maduro had like 8 vote options all for himself.
Nice source. Damn, look at those funders. The Goldman Sachs philanthropy fund 🤣
https://www.dejusticia.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/MEMORIA-ECONOMICA-830131150-2024.pdf
Did you take any to look at the mathematical argument being done? Ad hominems are usually taken as bad faith in academics, and this is an académico argument.
It was a big a notice on the math world in the zone, no surprise it was being reported a lot. In any case, to satisfy your and hominem, here’s an article published in a mid-left Colombian newsletter https://www.elespectador.com/opinion/columnistas/hector-abad-faciolince/democracia-totalitaria-y-matematicas/
Even Terrence Tao reported on the issue: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2024/08/02/what-are-the-odds-ii-the-venezuelan-presidential-election/
If you have mathematical arguments against Terrence’s, I would love to read them.
An ad-hominem is when I attack you or your character. I pointed out that your source is likely extremely biased.
And for the mathematical argument, the numbers he’s analysing don’t even match the reported votes in this other source that is highly critical of Maduro.
https://www.freiheit.org/venezuela-electoral-fraudster-president-venezuela
The reason for the discrepancy is the numbers are from when the CNE first oficially declared Maduro the winner of the elections. The numbers Terrence used are given by CNE’s president himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1v1y1_8AKY.
The source you provided uses the last numbers given by the CNE.
If the elections were rigged, I’d prefer that to having a filthy imperialist gringo bootlicking politician in office, anything the PSUV has to offer is way better for the people in Latam. I don’t give two fucks about satisfying your Western idea/ideal of whatever putrid thing you think democracy is. What an honour that the likes of you don’t think this is a democracy.
True… thankfully the glorious US bombed those undemocratic dictator fishing ships and invaded their country to righteously kidnap their undemocratically un-elected president and his heinous wife while killing people.
Now it gets to be a true democracy! Where their country starts going through liberalization and worsening social nets as their future is sold off to private sectors. Truly no longer a dictatorship.
2 bads don’t make 1 good.
The two bads you’re lumping together are mass murder and “a disreputable source didn’t like how you ran that election”
Actual harm versus theoretical harm at some point in the future to a non material concept
You’re deranged
And that’s not even getting into the fact that the non-harm you elevate was used as justification to commit the mass murders you diminish.
Psycho.
I was pointing out the logical fallace in claiming Venezuela is not a dictotarship just because US is a horrible country.
Oh okay so you were just ignoring how the outside world is the context for this conversation.
So you’re just a fundamentally dishonest and unserious person. And you’re actively defending the side the murders in the hundreds while attacking the side getting murdered.
The US has done a whole lot more than 1 fucking bad
I know. What’s your point? I’m not claiming US is a utopia, or have done no harm, I’m not even doing any claim about US. My claim is Venezuela is a dictatorship, and I think arguing “It is not, because US bad” is not a valid refutation to my claim.
My claim is Venezuela is a dictatorship
Have any proof for that claim? Or honestly even a proper analysis of the Venezuelan system and in what ways you believe it doesn’t serve the people/the people aren’t in control?
Maduro is so incompetent he blundered and allowed mathematical evidence of the past elections being rigged. Here’s an extensive analysis of that by Terrence Tao: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2024/08/02/what-are-the-odds-ii-the-venezuelan-presidential-election/
Usa rigs almost every election in the world. Collect some evidence about this too, or you’re just an imperialist propagandist (and kidnapper-bootlicker).
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Ah yes, a dictatorship where American puppets can b¡tch and moan about not letting the US ravage their countries can partake in elections.
Just stop consuming the Eagle Burger Institute slop my dude.
What does this post have to do with Venezuela
First panel of the meme is about Venezuela.
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When did I claim it wasn’t? Why do you all have an obsession of dimissing any criticism of Venezuela with a reference to US? I’m not even from there.
