I definitely support women’s rights and will always believe in their unfettered right to decide their own reproductive choices. I was worried when I first read this, however. If the only people having children are the fascists and their enablers, I fear the future will be even more bleak than the present. That said, this story does seem to indicate the movement is more based around not having children with Trump voters which I find completely reasonable.
The future is going to be pretty bleak with 10 billion people on the planet, too.
Nah it’s cool. That’s just a temporary problem.
deleted by creator
What? Overpopulation hasnt been a worry for well over a decade now and it wont be anytime soon. We will never reach 10 billion.
Not sure what rock you’ve been under but global population is projected to peak at 10.3 billion in the 2080s.
Uhm… /s ?
You being downvoted makes me sad. Idiots.
Here’s the /s
Maybe people will blink and see your comment for what it was.
Would be like Idiocracy, but with fascism
With an already functionally illiterate population. We’re soooo much closer to that than you think.
Do you underestimate my pessimism
I’m 51, and I’ve never been so happy not to have kids in my life.
The fun part is that this the foundation “Idiocracy” built its world on.
That’s totally erasing the born children’s ability to think critically. Loads of children from that environment grow up to leave it for the left. Speaking from experience
That’s great and absolutely does happen, but it’s the exception not the rule
Women don’t want to subject their children to this world. My cousin teared up the other day because she feels so bad she had kids 10 years ago and the future is so bleak. You all do not understand us at all, do you? Climate change, anyone? Why would I birth a baby that will just drown to death in a flood?
I can understand that view, I just don’t agree with it. If we don’t believe in trying to working for a better future, no matter how bad it’s looking (holy shit is it bad rn), then I feel like we might as well line up like lemmings and walk the plank.
Women have been doing the majority of the work for a better future. Men have been creating wars and destroying progress.
I agree that women on the whole generally fall on what I would consider the right side of progress while the worst of men perpetuate the worst aspects of human society, I don’t really understand what that has to do with what we’re talking about. I already stated I unequivocally support every woman’s right to do whatever they so choose with their bodies.
it’s interesting to see the summaries become more inaccurate and incendiary as you change the “bias” from left to right.
left wing summary:
- The 4B movement began in South Korea in 2019, advocating against heterosexual marriage, childbirth, dating, and sexual relationships with men.
- Supporters aim to boycott a system they believe promotes gender inequity, seeking control over their lives.
- The movement’s potential expansion to the U.S. Is seen as a response to perceived threats to women’s rights following an election.
right wing summary:
- A group of American liberal women launched the “4B Movement” to boycott relationships with men who voted for Donald Trump in the 2020 election.
- The movement is a protest against perceived threats to women’s rights, including concerns about abortion rights and gender equality.
- The effectiveness of the “4B Movement” in causing political change is currently uncertain, as it primarily aims to make a statement.
notice how the left wing summary properly states that this is a movement that started years ago in korea, and that it’s something that women in the US are adopting due to the recent election. meanwhile, the right wing summary falsely claims that the movement was created by “American liberal women”. it also claims that the movement was created to “boycott relationships with men who voted for Donald Trump”, which is just not true from the other things i’ve read. everything else seems to indicate that the 4B movement is about boycotting relationships with all men, not just trump supporters. but maybe i’m wrong about that last point.
See that’s wild to me. If women ended relationships with Trump supporters that would be quite a statement.
However it’s mostly left leaning women joining 4b. 52% of white women voted for Trump, even more when you include those who stayed home. That means more conservative relationships, marriages, families and fewer leftist ones. It’s almost what conservatives want with all that pureblood talk that the non pure bloods stop reproducing.
Whatever at least it’s bringing attention to the cause for now so that’s worth something.
The 4B movement could be considered a type of genocide actually, I’m surprised Rs aren’t getting upset about that (and I 100% support our right to genocide them back by using our rights to our own bodies)
The fact that neither side even breathes the word Lysistrata explains a lot about how you got there
i can forgive people for not referencing an ancient comedy that would take an entire paragraph of preamble to explain its relevant before making a point about a fictional story from a long time ago.
it’s not like it was a history.
“In a move straight out of lysistrata, an ancient greek comedy where women withold sexual favours to stop a war”
I literally read that shit as part of a three month subject in year nine
Which has what cultural connection to the Korean movement?
It sets a context for people unfamiliar with 4B.
Most people outside of Korea won’t be familiar with its internal politics, but anyone with the most basic education will know what Lysistrata is about.
i consider myself to have at least a basic level of education, and this was my first time hearing about Lysistrata
Yeah we talking about America though. From experience we spend more time on our own states history than the entirety of Greece and Rome, except in relation to why so much Greco-Roman shit is in our country. I’m pretty sure we didn’t cover any Greek comedies.
You don’t need to know any of that nonsense to be a good little patriotic non unionized factory worker.
an ancient comedy that would take an entire paragraph of preamble to explain
It shouldn’t need explaining, though.
It’s basic common knowledge that anyone with the slightest interest in not being ignorant should have been familiar with by the time they finished general education.
(You don’t need to have watched or read the play, mind, that might be out of your control depending on its availability in your context, but there’s no excuse for not knowing it exists and what it’s about.)
Which will work until Project 2025 recodifies rape as a property crime against a woman’s male guardian.
A “women are property” sign showed up in Texas, complete with a reference to old Jewish law via Romans.
In Sunday school I learned that when Jesus arrived it was now his way not the Old Testament way. And yet. Lewis Black has a whole stand up bit regarding his utter confusion at Christians wanting to tap into his god, who he describes as “a real son of a bitch”.
In the context of what is about to happen in America, it makes complete sense. It’s a cherry picked excuse to treat us as prized livestock.
Legacy is a commodity. I would argue it’s the ultimate commodity. And men don’t have choice there unless it’s given to them by a women. Or an abortion ban, wherein rapists now get to choose. Put the pieces together and legacy, in conjunction with traditional male roles attached to that will be sitting in the center.
They would have done it anyway. Stop justifying male abuse by blaming women.
I don’t think that’s what GP is doing. They’re saying that misogynists are going to double-down. Hell, Vance has already said it should be a crime for women to not have children; all they’ll do is codify it into law. Don’t make a kid by 25, and it’s jail time, or you become unemployable, or something. They’ll find a way.
Everyone should have complete choice over their bodies: women, trans women, trans men, men, ungendered whomever. The fact is that, come January and very possibly essentially forever thereafter, whatever protest actions women take will be countered by conservatives by legislature that makes things worse for women, until we arrive at The Handmaid’s Tale. Case in point: after Texas voted to remove a woman’s choice and women started traveling to other states for abortions, what did Texas conservatives do? Sit back and let it happen?
By all means, protest, and support the protesters, but we need to start planning for the reaction, because it will come. I think legalizing rape, or maybe only allowing men to press charges in case some other man uses their property, is the least we can expect.
We know what they want already though because it’s in project 2025. They want a woman to not be able to work, they want to limit divorce and birth control and abortion. They probably want to legaloze rape and protect child marriage too sure. But that’s not because of 4B or women. That was already in Project 2025. They were always going to abuse women whether we were docile or not.
God damnit the dating scene is already brutal enough. Dating apps are crap. I’m seeing a ton of friends going 4b. And the worst thing (from a dating perspective) is that they are right.
Fuck you Republicans. I hope all your sex dolls pop.
The thing is, Republican women aren’t interested in 4b. Abstinence can be a really effective means of protest, but only if a majority of women participate. 45% of women voted for Trump, and over 50% of white women voted for Trump. If the only women open to relationships are Republicans, a lot of men who don’t care about politics will turn red.
Exactly
First off, back when the majority of women available to date were leftwing, men didn’t get more leftwing. It didn’t happen. Women in the youngest voting demographic on exit polls were something like 61% voted for Kamala, whereas the men it was 45%. If your theory was right (and not just an excuse to blame women for men’s abuse), those numbers would be equal.
Women in general are more prone to abstinence. This includes conservative women, many of whom believe sex without the intent of procreation is wrong. Many will not engage in premarital sex and will not cohabitate before marriage. Some don’t believe in birth control. Many believe masturbation is wrong. Do you think they are having the same type of sex as nonconservatives? Lol. Also, these women don’t believe in abortion. There are women who are lesbians, suppressing it for religious reasons, who will never enjoy sex with a man but will do it anyway. They have very extreme views I doubt you’ve considered. And then there’s their fathers and family, some of whom will threaten you with a gun outright because that’s considered a funny conservative trope.
So yeah, if that’s your morals, go ahead and go. You were always the patriarchal piece of shit we knew you to be. Have fun with your weird ass handmaid.
Fuck you Republicans. I hope all your sex dolls pop.
Read Handmaid’s Tale. They won’t need dolls.
Margaret Atwood made sure that everything that happens in that story is something that has happened in real life at some point in history. It will now happen again.
If we ever have elections again, convince your friends to not vote for fascism and misogeny.
Honestly, I think 4b will be very effective because if Jodi Foster can convince one man
“If ya wanna shoot your load, your gonna have to shoot your load”
“Dad, what started Civil War 2?”
“Leftists got horny son, now eat your hot chip”
Like dudes aren’t going to wait 4 years to get laid. I’d give us 24 hours tops before you see left wing men dawning their blue union uniforms and writing to their sweethearts.
"My dearest Martha,
Our battalion has just crossed into Mara Lago after a fortnight of marching. I yearn to be back with you to feel your touch. We are to confront the MAGA army by dawn, and I pray that we win so I can see those sweet titties again. Until then I will keep a brave face and a musket that is loaded, much like my balls."
What the fuck am I reading?
The art I turned my pain into.
That art happens to be a Lemmy thread. My pain is weird.
I didn’t even realize it was one person replying to themselves until just now. What the fuck? Did they forget to switch to their alts? Is it performance art?
Joking aside, I needed to be better at getting my friends to vote at all. They were abstaining out of protest and I just couldn’t get through. It was tough and it’s enraging to see them go “I told you so”.
Well, it’s too late now. They’ll “never have to vote again.”
Idk if you know these kinds of people, but some of the arguments I heard were “democracy isn’t at stake because we don’t have one to begin with, Dems and GOP are two heads of the same snake”. I honestly am reconsidering one of my friendships because when I mentioned I have a degree in political science, she told me people with degrees are brainwashed by the corporate education system. It really freakin’ hurt to hear that.
Those aren’t your friends, they’re Nazi sympathizers.
The people on Lemmy don’t even know what fascism or misogyny is. They can’t even detect it. It’s astonishing.
If you think its bad here, just know that most Americans are even more ignorant.
What’s your goal with this statement? Just to excuse the sexism on Lemmy? To manage my feelings about sexism?
Are there any self respecting women still fucking republicans?
Lots unfortunately, ~46% of women voted for Trump. Compared to 53% for Harris. This is less of a gap than there was in Biden v Trump (55% v 43%).
More than half of white women voted for Trump.
self respecting
More than half of white women who voted voted for trump. Only ~53% of white women voted at all, so about 28% of white women voted for trump
Another way to add those numbers is to say 75% of all white women didn’t vote for Harris. We can twist stats all day long to try and blame someone, but the reality is that Americans are thirsty for something and Trump promised it to them. Harris failed to read the room. Society is hurting and authoritarianism is a bottle of liquor; you know it’s not the best choice but at least it feels good if nobody is going to give you populism.
And the other 47% made a choice of inaction. They and the rest of us all get to deal with the consequences of that.
Maybe a few with a GOP kink?
He said self-respecting.
Subs can respect themselves.
But no self-respecting sub would submit to a trump voter.
But that’s their kink. It’s quite a dilemma.
I’m kinky. Very kinky. I was invited to 2 different kink.com live shows/parties. I met my wife at a BDSM party. But on Tuesday night, I lost any interest I had in kink. BDSM withiut the sub actually being an equal is abuse. Sadly, I hope they feel the same.
Do what you have to do ladies.
I only have this bit of unsolicited advice. Try to still form genuine connections with men who you consider to be decent human beings when possible. I’m not saying this for our sake either. This is not South Korea. This is
potentiallyprobably going to be worse. If our government goes all the way and removes women’s rights in their entirety then you’re going to want men in your life that you can trust.I would say this really goes for everyone. Trump’s revenge tour is going to be cruel and people need to form strong communities. This is a time where people need to find like minded individuals and band together if they want to make it through the hell that’s approaching us.
Godspeed to them.
Let’s get those birth rates lower than Japan and Korea.
We can do this! America numba 1!!!
Neither of my two kids wants kids (one is ace/aro), so it ends with me. And if I’d had been more tuned in politically in 2006 and had thought about it for half a tick, I don’t know that I would have chosen to have kids in the first place.
I see this going two ways:
- Video game boycott route. Lot of vocal support but not a lot of actual support.
- Selective breeding route. Right wing women have babies, left wing don’t. Oh shocker welcome to the theocracy.
It deffo ain’t finna be some Lysistrata shit.
You don’t pass politics genetically to your offspring.
You don’t pass your religion genetically either but mysteriously most children grow up with the same one their parents did.
WTF you really won’t go as far as non-separated at birth twin studies, will you.
There is 100% confounding between nature and nurture when people grow up in the exact same niche with their siblings and parents. It is also notoriously difficult to separate the effects, even the so-called heritability index is probably statistical hokum. Twins separated at birth are your best go to separate the effects, and it is subject to criticism as well for confounding effects. Yet you go out in complete confidence and state that parent politics are hereditary. Ridiculous.
The nature vs nurture debate been going on for millenia we ain’t solving it here folks.
🙄
You don’t need to pass it genetically, most behaviors are learned. Thats not to say that it’s deterministic, but statistically people are likely to have the same religious and political views as their parents.
Your 2nd option assumes that there is always a majority that should make room for minorities, otherwise minorities will not exist? Because minorities have existed throughout history.
Republicans: we want pure women
Women:
Republicans: No wait not like that
I can’t see this doing anything else than pushing men further to the right as a result tbh
isn’t this originally a South Korean thing? the men there are probably some of the most openly misogynistic in the world (in terms of general population, not counting specific organizations). i think you’re right. at best, this doesn’t work; at worst, it backfires.
Yes the movement comes from South Korea
I’m afraid of this backfiring due to newly re-entrenched & emboldened misogyny refusing to do anything against those raping women for refusing to have sex with them. The incels that have been stewing in their resentment for years are gonna explode, and many will get away with it.
Arm yourselves.
Many will try. And many will die. And it’s the dying that’s funny.
Darwin award winners. Darwin award winners everywhere.
I beat you to it girls! MGTOW
MGTOWWOM
Big cringe, bro
Oh noooo! Anyways.
Ahh yes, remove yourselves from the gene pool making it easier for republicans to reproduce with other republicans…
That’ll show em!
Do you think politics is genetic and passed down to your offspring…?
Even if they don’t think that, they sure seem to think that women are nothing but incubators whose wants and needs and rights are of no importance, only our uteri are.
Exactly like the other misogynists women are doing this to avoid!
But I bet they’re the first to jump up and whine that not all men… 🙄
Possibly (at least predisposition may be), and yes.
In any case - a Lysistratan stance seems completely understandable to me.
I should get a paternity test with my republican mother. I knew she wasn’t my momma!
Strange how this appears to be a very close carbon copy of MGTOW - don’t marry, don’t have kids, don’t cohabitate, focus on yourself over chasing skirts - and yet 4B is celebrated and MGTOW is vilified. Surprising how blatant the anti-male gender bigotry gets.
It gets even crazier when you realize that MGTOW is doing that one thing women have been begging men to do for generations - for men to leave them completely alone, to not approach them or flirt with them or bother them in any way - and yet MGTOW men are crucified for doing exactly that.
Hypocrisy, much?
I mean, 4B is a good thing. Humanity is already four times past the planet’s safe carrying capacity, so less humans are what we should be aiming for. Plus, if this 4B thing takes off and has a deep impact over decades, most women involved with it will exit out of their fertility window - from age 15 to 35 - without ever having had a child.
I’m an egalitarian. If MGTOW is a thing, why not 4B? Both should be able to exist.
What I have a problem with, however, is that any fair and equitable society cannot celebrate one and vilify the other. Otherwise, why call it “equality,” when it is anything but that?
Your response was, “Won’t somebody think of the men!?” I think you need to sit this one out, bro.
most women involved with it will exit out of their fertility window - from age 15 to 35
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Shut the fuck up permanently you goddamned weirdo.
Your response was, “Won’t somebody think of the men!?”
False. I never said that. I never implored anyone to “think about the men”, or tried to leverage an intellectually bankrupt zero-sum argument like you did.
I said, “is no-one disturbed by the blatant hypocrisy?”
I don’t care about men being ignored. Society treats men as worthless unless they are providing something of value, so ignoring men is par for the course anyhow.
I just hate inequality and bigoted double standards.
most women involved with it will exit out of their fertility window - from age 15 to 35
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Shut the fuck up permanently you goddamned weirdo.
Ah, let me guess - you know nothing about human reproduction and basic biology, no?
Helpful hint: look up the term “geriatric pregnancy”. And look at the statistics of female fertility - without the aid of modern medicine - after 35. Spoiler: it drops off a cliff, and most women are functionally sterile by 40-45.
Stuff like this is covered in post-secondary biology classes at most any university. And it’s not even in the advanced classes - if memory serves, it was a second-year class where I came across this info.
None of that merits a response.
None of that merits a response.
Ah, the “sour grapes because I have nothing to counter with” argument.
Still, you did take the high(er) road, in that you did not descend to an ad hominem as so many ideologically blinkered people do when their core brainwashing is directly challenged with real-world evidence. For avoiding that, I must actually commend you. So pick up a textbook and bone up on facts, and you won’t be caught with your intellectual pants down again.
You can give birth even in your 50s safely. I know an OBGYN who specializes in senior pregnancies and had 2 herself that were totally fine. Most women are not sterile then, and even if that were true, 40-45 is a different window than 35 like you originally claimed. We have plenty of fertility treatments that can help with conception anyway.
advocating for men to separate themselves from women and society, which they believe has been corrupted by feminism
MGTOW isnt being an introvert, or ascetic, or a priest or monk. All those things are already socially allowed for men and are much similar to 4B. Feminism is equal rights for the sexes. Women are protesting their enslavement by toxic masculinity with 4B. Men are protesting their lack of control of women with MGTOW, because its a protest of feminism. Do you really truly think this is equivalent? Lol. Do you really need to play the vulnerable narcissist card here?
Have you ever seen Alien? That movie was about forced birth. Do you think a movement that expressly wants to force birth on women by fighting against their rights is the same morally as a movement that wants to stop forced birth on women?
You can give birth even in your 50s safely.
I never denied that. However, pregnancies that had no modern medical involvement in its creation become very rare after the age of 40, and vanishingly rare after the age of 50.
To wit,
35 like you originally claimed.
I claimed that pregnancies after 35 are called “geriatric pregnancies”, and that is due to the risks that they bring. This is a medical term, used throughout the industry for pregnancies after the age of 35
And fertility begins to drop noticeably after 32, and really begins to plummet after 35.
If you’re going to be referencing a hate screed by misandrists - and yes, almost every sentence of the Wikipedia article is either a gross exaggeration, a deliberate mischaracterization, or an outrightght lie - then you are operating wholly in bad faith.
Feminism is equal rights for the sexes.
It’s a female supremacist movement.
Have you ever seen Alien? That movie was about forced birth. Do you think a movement that expressly wants to force birth on women by fighting against their rights is the same morally as a movement that wants to stop forced birth on women?
And there is that outright mischaracterization, which is pretty much bordering on a lie, that I was expecting. Most MGTOW have no strong opinion against abortion, because a female exercising her right to abort can also release the man from a quarter century’s worth of unwilling financial enslavement. And many are fully in favour of abortion rights for both genders… which include paper abortions for men, which bring near-complete parity and equality of that right to both sexes.
a female supremacist movement
Thanks for confirming exactly the type of person you are, it’s really helpful for people that want to be certain that they won’t lose anything of worth by blocking you.
Your source you linked states that women can give birth after 45 and your claim was wrong they are “essentially infertile.”
You said the upper limit for a woman’s fertile window was 35. It isn’t. Per your sources. Glad you admit that now.
fertility begins to drop noticeably
Noticeably how? What exactly are you noticing?
Lol well female supremacy is meaningless in a patriarchy anyway, even if that were true about feminism (it isn’t).
Again, MGTOW isn’t the same as being an introvert or an ascetic or an asexual. It quite literally is an antifeminist antiwoman movement per the definition and origin and people who ascribe to it. Maybe don’t label yourself as one and just call yourself asexual like a normal person.
Your source you linked states that women can give birth after 45
Some women can. Most can’t without modern medical help. Again: I already specified that. And by the age of 50, almost no women can get pregnant without modern medical help.
and your claim was wrong they are “essentially infertile.”
The article even says that most women are essentially infertile by the age of 45. So it’s clear that you didn’t read it at all.
You said the upper limit for a woman’s fertile window was 35.
Aaaand there is the outright lying
Nope, never said that. Point out exactly where, then. But you can’t.
What I said is that a pregnancy after 35 is called a geriatric pregnancy by the medical system. And that the optimal wjndow for pregnancies - for them to happen easily, and without major complications - is between 15 and 35.
Because - had you been truly unbiased - you would have pointed out that pregnancies before the age of 15 are possible as well. Because they are, they just aren’t safe or healthy to have.
Ergo, the optimum fertility window for most women is between 15 and 35. Outside of which it becomes materially more risky and unlikely to happen. And after the age of 40 to 45, vanishingly unlikely.
the optimum fertility window for most women is between 15 and 35
You originally just said
the fertility window for most women is between 15-35
This isn’t true, which is why you had to change your phrasing to include “optimum.”. We even have cases of women much younger than that and much older than that who gave birth. Those are just averages that you listed. They are not prescriptive for every case or descriptive. They are a statistical average. Idk how to be more clear.
15 is not a safe age to have a pregnancy (and you sound like a pedophile saying it). There are numerous complications girls can have at that age resulting in death because they literally aren’t developed enough. Your bone density peaks at 29 for women. Your hips develop that whole time. Girls that young have very soft bones comparatively.
They include 15 because that’s the age girls can have a baby develop, not be delivered safely. You creep.
The 4B movement in South Korea is meant to oppose their patriarchal state because they don’t want to be viewed as reproductive tools.
On the other hand the movement you’re talking about is meant to “protect” against feminism and oppose a supposed bias against men in society, which is ludicrous when you consider that women are discriminated against much much more to the point it’s not even comparable. It’s just a misogynistic movement.
So no, this isn’t hypocrisy, these are very different.
Now, if men made a movement to protest gendered expectations or real problems without jumping through a thousand hoops to blame feminism, and without its logic being based in misogyny, I think that would be better received.
Very well said
Dat subtext tho
