That entirely depends on whether we accept liberalism as a default which most nations do not. Most of the world is still arguing authoritarianism vs liberalism right now.
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
Both are political left of center views. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalism.
As the other commenter mentioned, it seems everyone here has a very binary understanding of things. I’d be cautious as I’ve seen this same binary views with Trump fuck heads in 2016.
It isn’t a binary. Elements of private property exist in socialism, and elements of public property exist in capitalism. What matters most is which is the principle aspect of the economy. Liberalism stands for the current, capitalist system, but usually argues for minor modifications. That lands it squarely in the right-wing side.
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
Being “left of center” is a comment about the Overton Window. People are trying to express to you about how outside of the extremely slanted window, liberals are all conservative, which is wholly and demonstrably correct.
When you’re the only one trying to use rose colored glasses, it behooves you to understand that most others will have a different perspective.
No, you are in .ml which is comparable to the trump supporters on the right. They have been radicalized and used various newspeak to create a unified voice that doesn’t conform with standard knowledge. This is why I have shown all kinds of sources that reinforce the idea that liberalism is center left while everyone from .ml is strictly applying Marxist theory as if it’s fact. Same experience arguing vaccines in r/conservative.
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11
Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on.
Partially true but not universally true. This is like saying Jazz is African American music and classical is white music. You’re flattening these things into a very binary categorization. These are not binary categories like this. There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many more options and honestly I’m worried there’s a push you radicalize the left against even considering it after seeing many comments here.
An example of the top of my head is cooperatives. We don’t need public ownership of factories and production. We can restructure capitalism and how it works so it is more socialized. Worker owned business. Change the laws. Change how corporations are structured when they go public. Change investing laws since faceless stakeholders is a primary cause of a lot of issues we face.
The options are not capitalism or socialism. That seems like it’s a toxic pill that’s being pushed in the community. I really advise people to consider there’s potentially some radicalization occurring in certain corners. Remember they have a lot of power to push ideas and kill others. If we all know Cambridge and Koch brothers and heritage foundations are out there manipulating things online, maybe it’s important to be careful of dominant opinions in the niche corners as they grow.
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.
Quote: “Social liberalism is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights…”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centre to centre-left, although there are deviations from these positions to both the political left or right. In modern political discourse, social liberalism is associated with progressivism, a left-liberalism contrasted to the right-leaning neoliberalism, and combines support for a mixed economy with cultural liberalism.”
Quote: “Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large‑scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom.”
Source: Pew Research Center – Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology
Quote: “Holding liberal positions on nearly all issues, Establishment Liberals are some of the strongest supporters of the current president and the Democratic Party of any political typology group.”
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
I think it’s a very nuanced position but I still defend that it’s center left. Economically conservative I’m assuming means pro capitalist.
I support cooperatives and changing laws to fix how people are allowed to invest in the market. I don’t see why those things are not left.
Look at Mondragon Spain as one example of a proven successful example. Like historically successful. They changed how corporations are controlled after WWII and have proven successfully it works.
Cooperatives are neither left nor right. They do not fundamentally change property relations, in that they are based on private property and petite bourgeois class relations. Cooperatives can be part of early socialism, like Huawei in the PRC or the agricultural sectors in the USSR and PRC, or they can be a part of capitalist systems like Mondragon in Spain. At best, they could be considered quasi-socialist.
The reason why “fixing laws about investing” isn’t really “left” is because it doesn’t alter the base mode of production of society. It keeps capitalism intact, it just tweaks how you interact with it. This makes it less right wing than, say, Nazi Germany, but it doesn’t make it left, either.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
Neoliberalism is absolutely not the default when we look at the whole world. If we look at the developed world it is the default. That is not the case for everyone.
Your binary only makes sense for some of the world. That’s why I keep pointing to how eurocentric it us.
No, they aren’t. Liberalism is the ideological superstructure of capitalism, while leftists support socialism of various fashions. The driving distinction between right and left is retaining the current system, or progressing onwards to the next.
Liberal/Left-leaning people embrace social services and government intervention in the economy.
Conservative/Right-leaning people support lower taxes, free markets and less government intervention
in the economy.
Libertarians advocate both personal and economic liberty (freedom).
Authoritarians favour strict obedience to authority and government control, at the expense of personal
and economic freedom.
lmao what is it with people trying to map abstract political concepts onto geometric and spacial shapes?
The colloquial meaning of “liberal” used by some Americans does not align with how it’s used in political theory. That’s okay, words have different meaning in different contexts.
“Left” and “right” stem from the French Revolution (1789!) where the people who sat on the left of the National Assembly were progressives that supported the revolution and people who sat on the right were conservatives that wanted to preserve the old system. Liberalism (as defined in political theory, not colloquially) is the dominant global ideology and thus is no longer progressive or radical. It may have been progressive when monarchy was the main form of government, propping up feudalism as the main economic structure. But that’s obviously not how the world works 200+ years later
Yes, liberals tend to define the entire scope of political economy to a narrow, capitalist viewpoint. That doesn’t make it correct. A huge range of viewpoints narrowly occupies the “radical” portion, while an absolute mountain of space comparatively is given to subdivisions of capitalism. It’s a deeply silly graph.
I think I get it. Right wing groups like koch Bros and heritage institutes push the left to fracture into very niche small subsets in order to isolate making it hard for those groups to organize and easier to kill them off. Much like how a cheetah separates a young calf from the herd. So what groups are you talking about for your “huge range of viewpoints”
Totally not silly at all to get hyper specific about political ideology. I’m a liberal right center neo cat Audi rhino born a capitalist but transitioned to a socialist somewhere around 1992 when political synergy was at its peak
Nah, it aint that deep. The left wants socialism, the right wants capitalism. There are differences in views among leftists and right-wingers, but the base is in if the principle aspect of the economy should be public, or private.
No, the left want socialism, be it anarchism, marxist socialism, etc. Capitalism is not the “absence of socialism,” it’s its own thing.
You’re confusing people calling right-wing parties like the DNC “left” in the context of USian politics, but that’s because the left is fringe, in parties like PSL.
What do you think makes the divide? Why are you so insistent on calling capitalism “left wing?”
This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as “liberal” despite this internationally not being the norm at all.
Here’s a definition of liberalism:
Liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology that emphasizes individual rights, liberties, and limited government. It promotes ideas like free markets, free trade, and social equality, while often advocating for a strong emphasis on individual autonomy and civil liberties.
Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc…
A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade.
Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia’s liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren’t very influential w.r.t. party policy because it’s such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party.
Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they’ve come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They’ve remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here’s the “political compass” for the Netherlands for example:
Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it’s interesting to note here that the PVV (the “far-right” party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn’t even all that far right. Their economic policies aren’t actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there’s certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis.
Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don’t like being lumped in with liberals, because they don’t focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it.
You’re not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals “left-wing”, but it’s a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world.
There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there’s a small resurgance with Mamdani.
But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
Canada’s two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that.
Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party).
Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats.
Yea I get it. Liberalism is left of center. There’s no denying it. A lot of you just moved far left to the point that you all think the center moved with you. It did not. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalist. The options are not support socialism or capitalism. That is very lazy way to categorize the political spectrum. There’s more to it.
The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory.
It’s a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say “left” and “right” we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold.
Republicans are much more “conservative” (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the “left” as they aren’t as conservative and therefore they are “to the left” of Republicans.
If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don’t fit there.
How can liberals be left when liberalism is the hegemonic ideology in the US. Both parties are liberal and both parties represent oligarch interests, the only difference between them is in how to manage the internal contradictions of the country.
No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left.
Yes they are. A Liberal for most political subgroups in liberalism are left of center with the odd leaning center right. Liberalism values mostly are left of center values.
Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights.
Liberals are left
Someone hearing for the first time that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher are staunch liberals.
That entirely depends on whether we accept liberalism as a default which most nations do not. Most of the world is still arguing authoritarianism vs liberalism right now.
Are you guys being serious right now? This is insane. Liberal values are left of center.
Which century are you from? 18th?
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
Both are political left of center views. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalism.
As the other commenter mentioned, it seems everyone here has a very binary understanding of things. I’d be cautious as I’ve seen this same binary views with Trump fuck heads in 2016.
It isn’t a binary. Elements of private property exist in socialism, and elements of public property exist in capitalism. What matters most is which is the principle aspect of the economy. Liberalism stands for the current, capitalist system, but usually argues for minor modifications. That lands it squarely in the right-wing side.
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
citation needed
This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)
And you are presuming the discussions being had are about capitalism when they are still debating the role of the government in private ownership.
It’s a eurocentric position. It’s odd how many “leftists” fall into this.
oh my god we get it you learned the word ‘presume’ last week
Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Lol the socialists stole the “left” from you
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
Being “left of center” is a comment about the Overton Window. People are trying to express to you about how outside of the extremely slanted window, liberals are all conservative, which is wholly and demonstrably correct.
When you’re the only one trying to use rose colored glasses, it behooves you to understand that most others will have a different perspective.
No, you are in .ml which is comparable to the trump supporters on the right. They have been radicalized and used various newspeak to create a unified voice that doesn’t conform with standard knowledge. This is why I have shown all kinds of sources that reinforce the idea that liberalism is center left while everyone from .ml is strictly applying Marxist theory as if it’s fact. Same experience arguing vaccines in r/conservative.
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
No.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.
Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you’re about 150 years late in defining liberalism as “the left”
Can you show me where private property is categorically right leaning and not left
Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Partially true but not universally true. This is like saying Jazz is African American music and classical is white music. You’re flattening these things into a very binary categorization. These are not binary categories like this. There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many more options and honestly I’m worried there’s a push you radicalize the left against even considering it after seeing many comments here.
An example of the top of my head is cooperatives. We don’t need public ownership of factories and production. We can restructure capitalism and how it works so it is more socialized. Worker owned business. Change the laws. Change how corporations are structured when they go public. Change investing laws since faceless stakeholders is a primary cause of a lot of issues we face.
The options are not capitalism or socialism. That seems like it’s a toxic pill that’s being pushed in the community. I really advise people to consider there’s potentially some radicalization occurring in certain corners. Remember they have a lot of power to push ideas and kill others. If we all know Cambridge and Koch brothers and heritage foundations are out there manipulating things online, maybe it’s important to be careful of dominant opinions in the niche corners as they grow.
Because that is the status quo. Leftism is about progressing onto the next mode of production, not stagnating or regressing, which is right-wing.
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
Currently the world is condemning the liberals for doing a genocide
😆
Do you even read bro
Yes I read. Like how I read that Wikipedia link and the other supporting links and references I’ve posted. All saying liberalism is left.
We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do.
No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.
Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts
we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center.
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.
deleted by creator
Source: Wikipedia – Social liberalism
Quote: “Social liberalism is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights…”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centre to centre-left, although there are deviations from these positions to both the political left or right. In modern political discourse, social liberalism is associated with progressivism, a left-liberalism contrasted to the right-leaning neoliberalism, and combines support for a mixed economy with cultural liberalism.”
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
Source: Simple English Wikipedia – Social liberalism
Quote: “Social liberalism … endorses a regulated market economy and the expansion of civil and political rights.”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centrist or centre-left"
Link: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
Source: Britannica – Liberalism
Quote: “Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large‑scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom.”
Link: https://www.britannica.com/question/How-does-modern-liberalism-differ-from-conservatism
Source: Cambridge Dictionary – Liberalism
Quote: “Liberal political ideas emphasize the need to make new laws as society changes and the need for government to provide social services.”
Link: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english-russian/liberal
Source: Pew Research Center – Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology
Quote: “Holding liberal positions on nearly all issues, Establishment Liberals are some of the strongest supporters of the current president and the Democratic Party of any political typology group.”
Link: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology-2/
You are factually incorrect.
Definitely am not. I have plenty of supporting links. You all have … Comments
No. We’re right. You’ve been given references. Just because you obstinantly ignore those references does not make you correct or smart.
No I’m right I gave references, nobody has provided anything that has shown that liberalism is right
My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous.
And I told you, you posted a link to classic liberalism. It is a subset of liberalism it is not liberalism
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
I think it’s a very nuanced position but I still defend that it’s center left. Economically conservative I’m assuming means pro capitalist.
I support cooperatives and changing laws to fix how people are allowed to invest in the market. I don’t see why those things are not left.
Look at Mondragon Spain as one example of a proven successful example. Like historically successful. They changed how corporations are controlled after WWII and have proven successfully it works.
Cooperatives are neither left nor right. They do not fundamentally change property relations, in that they are based on private property and petite bourgeois class relations. Cooperatives can be part of early socialism, like Huawei in the PRC or the agricultural sectors in the USSR and PRC, or they can be a part of capitalist systems like Mondragon in Spain. At best, they could be considered quasi-socialist.
The reason why “fixing laws about investing” isn’t really “left” is because it doesn’t alter the base mode of production of society. It keeps capitalism intact, it just tweaks how you interact with it. This makes it less right wing than, say, Nazi Germany, but it doesn’t make it left, either.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
You’re arguing with people on lemmy.ml.
I got nothing better going on.
Just good to keep in mind you’re arguing with communists about idelogy.
Wow. Helping someone for free. Terrible at being a lib.
😆 I appreciate that. Thank you
big no. neoliberalism is a capitalist ideology. right wing.
Only if you are eurocentric and accept liberalism as a default state. I would argue eurocentric perspectives are inherently problematic.
dude is openly liberal, regardless of what the default is in their part of the world (and its usually neoliberalism anyway)
Neoliberalism is absolutely not the default when we look at the whole world. If we look at the developed world it is the default. That is not the case for everyone.
Your binary only makes sense for some of the world. That’s why I keep pointing to how eurocentric it us.
i’m assuming most people here are usian.
which usually means liberal, yeah.
Did you mean default for lemmy or default for the system utilized by most nations? I took you as meaning the latter
both. its how most people understand the world, for better or worse (mostly worse)
No, they aren’t. Liberalism is the ideological superstructure of capitalism, while leftists support socialism of various fashions. The driving distinction between right and left is retaining the current system, or progressing onwards to the next.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/left-liberals
https://civix.ca/resources/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Backgrounder-Lesson-2-The-Political-Spectrum.pdf
https://www.dictionary.com/e/leftright/
lmao what is it with people trying to map abstract political concepts onto geometric and spacial shapes?
The colloquial meaning of “liberal” used by some Americans does not align with how it’s used in political theory. That’s okay, words have different meaning in different contexts.
“Left” and “right” stem from the French Revolution (1789!) where the people who sat on the left of the National Assembly were progressives that supported the revolution and people who sat on the right were conservatives that wanted to preserve the old system. Liberalism (as defined in political theory, not colloquially) is the dominant global ideology and thus is no longer progressive or radical. It may have been progressive when monarchy was the main form of government, propping up feudalism as the main economic structure. But that’s obviously not how the world works 200+ years later
Yes, liberals tend to define the entire scope of political economy to a narrow, capitalist viewpoint. That doesn’t make it correct. A huge range of viewpoints narrowly occupies the “radical” portion, while an absolute mountain of space comparatively is given to subdivisions of capitalism. It’s a deeply silly graph.
I think I get it. Right wing groups like koch Bros and heritage institutes push the left to fracture into very niche small subsets in order to isolate making it hard for those groups to organize and easier to kill them off. Much like how a cheetah separates a young calf from the herd. So what groups are you talking about for your “huge range of viewpoints”
Totally not silly at all to get hyper specific about political ideology. I’m a liberal right center neo cat Audi rhino born a capitalist but transitioned to a socialist somewhere around 1992 when political synergy was at its peak
Nah, it aint that deep. The left wants socialism, the right wants capitalism. There are differences in views among leftists and right-wingers, but the base is in if the principle aspect of the economy should be public, or private.
Not all left want socialism. The political spectrum is not divided by “want socialism / do not want socialism”
But you’re right it’s not that deep
No, the left want socialism, be it anarchism, marxist socialism, etc. Capitalism is not the “absence of socialism,” it’s its own thing.
You’re confusing people calling right-wing parties like the DNC “left” in the context of USian politics, but that’s because the left is fringe, in parties like PSL.
What do you think makes the divide? Why are you so insistent on calling capitalism “left wing?”
Jesus I’m so sick and tired of people parroting this DNC line. Nobody has mentioned the DNC here.
Capitalism is not a defining feature of being left. There is more to being on the left than just socialist ideals
What is “center” supposed to mean here?
This is a very typically American point of view, which tends to lump a lot of people together as “liberal” despite this internationally not being the norm at all.
Here’s a definition of liberalism:
Note specifically how it says individual rights. The idea with liberalism is that if everyone is similarly unrestrained by the government, and has the same civil liberties, there is an even playing field in which individuals can personally grow and excel. This neatly links together with the liberal belief in a free market, free trade, etc…
A strict liberal idealogy will also adopt several progressive policies w.r.t. civil liberties, like gay rights (as this causes social equality -> level playing field for competition). But liberalism is still a strictly capitalist idealogy, with a strong emphasis on the free market and free trade.
Generally, this individualistic approach to rights is considered socially progressive and economically right-wing. And we see that this is the case in most countries around the world, e.g. Australia’s liberal party or the Dutch VVD. The Dutch VVD is a good example to look at here, they are considered very firmly right-wing, but their party platform most closely matches to that of the DNC. In the US, the two major parties are both righg-wing, one is a moderately progressive right-wing party (with some left-wingers in there, but they aren’t very influential w.r.t. party policy because it’s such a small minority) and the other is a conservative/authoritarian right-wing party.
Because both parties sit firmly on the right of the spectrum, they’ve come to distinguish themselves on social policy rather than economic policy. They’ve remapped the progressive-conservative axis on the left-right axis and called it a day. But in most countries, these axes are very much distinct. Here’s the “political compass” for the Netherlands for example:
Note how there are only two fairly fringe parties to the right of the VVD. Also it’s interesting to note here that the PVV (the “far-right” party with the bird symbol near the bottom) isn’t even all that far right. Their economic policies aren’t actually all that focused on free market dynamics, and they do promote certain social policies. But their hardline immigration stance pushes them very firmly in the conservative camp. And although there’s certainly a correlation between left-progressive and right-conservative, there are still major differences between the parties along this diagonal axis.
Generally, actual left-wing people (be they progressive or conservative) don’t like being lumped in with liberals, because they don’t focus on as much on individual freedom but rather on collective freedom and on policies that benefit the collective. Hence their insistence on actually looking at the full political spectrum rather than the simplified/reducted version of it.
You’re not wrong that people in the US tend to call liberals “left-wing”, but it’s a very reductive, American perspective not shared by political scientists or the rest of the world.
Liberals are rightwing.
There was a brief moment the US democratic party went social democratic, from Roosevelt to Carter and these days there’s a small resurgance with Mamdani.
But Clinton, Obama, Biden, Harris and Cuomo are all at the very least centre-right wing.
Yea what about in Canada
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
Canada’s two main parties are both right-wing. They support capitalism, and the rule of capitalists over the economy and government. The canadian conservative party agrees with them in that.
Or look at Australia. Their two main parties are Labour vs the liberal party (both are pretty right wing, but in that country the liberals openly position themselves to the right of the other party).
Or take Japan. Their far right party is called the liberal democrats.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Yea I get it. Liberalism is left of center. There’s no denying it. A lot of you just moved far left to the point that you all think the center moved with you. It did not. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalist. The options are not support socialism or capitalism. That is very lazy way to categorize the political spectrum. There’s more to it.
The internet is kinda crazy. Confidently wrong children who can do nothing more than copy and paste from wikipedia are trying to down talk to people with a lifetime of study of political theory.
That makes them even less credible. Considering everything else says liberalism is left of center
Here is Princeton
https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/articles/articles12/Starr_Center-left-liberalism.html
This is a discussion about liberals in the US, not the liberal party of Canada, which is decidedly left of US politics as a whole.
No, this was not specific to US.
You’re mistaken; the United States has no leftist parties.
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It’s a failure of terms used in US politics. When we say “left” and “right” we pretty much exclusively are talking about their position in respect to one another as opposed to the actual policies the parties hold.
Republicans are much more “conservative” (right wing) than Democrats (liberals) are, so the Republicans are the right and the Democrats become the “left” as they aren’t as conservative and therefore they are “to the left” of Republicans.
If you were to look at global definitions as to what it means to be a left wing party, Democrats really don’t fit there.
It’s crazy what absolutely no knowledge about various political and philosophical movements does to a mfer.
How can liberals be left when liberalism is the hegemonic ideology in the US. Both parties are liberal and both parties represent oligarch interests, the only difference between them is in how to manage the internal contradictions of the country.
No they’re not, I hate to break it to you but most conservatives are liberals. What you’re referring to is liberals picking up on social policies championed by the left.
Yes they are. A Liberal for most political subgroups in liberalism are left of center with the odd leaning center right. Liberalism values mostly are left of center values.
Please define liberalism for me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Ok so based on that you should realise that every political party follows liberal economics. Hell even most conservative parties in the west pretend to stand up for liberal rights.
Economics?
Yes almost every political party believes in the right of private property and market economics.
Right, I haven’t said otherwise. But political alignment is more than just economics. Economics is part but not the whole