This really shouldn’t be a hot take but I think the people here will disagree. “Linus unironically did nothing wrong in his linux challenge video” The linux community really shouldnt act like he was using it wrong because its a terrible look.
No reasonable person can pretend there are no issues with linux. Sure you can get good at using linux and not run into these issues but they still exist and people will still run into them and you shouldnt blame the person.
I don’t think LTT’s approach is bad exactly. I really just take issue with their argument that “there are thousands of ‘switching to Linux’ videos on YouTube, so we don’t need to cover that ground again.” It’s ignoring the fact that, for better or worse, they have the biggest audience and furthest reach in the space. There’s still room for “we’re approaching this like normies would,” but I really think they need to close it up with “if you want to do this, here’s how to do it right.”
The big problem is Linus decides to pretend to be some “average user” when he isn’t one, and therefore ends up making absolutely bonkers decisions. It was super obvious in the last video because Linus was the only one participating who had major issues, and the only one participating who pretended to know nothing.
If they actually wanted to give Linux an honest shot and see if they can replace windows on one or more of their computers, the format would be entirely different. I think the format would probably start with a Q&A session with a well known Linux YouTuber like Wendel (who they still appear to have a good working relationship with) where they get the initial “here’s what you need to know and what I recommend for the best experience right now” then a check in call after 24 hours, 72 hours, 1 week and 2 weeks where they touch base, discuss pain points and how to alleviate them. Such a format would give an easy transition as well as great advise for the audience, but still present plenty of opportunity to directly see real world pain points and rough edges but instead of those rough edges being “haha Linux bad” they can instead be “here’s how to overcome them” or “this is an area that needs some developer time, anyone want to dive into improving this?” And maybe if they were really feeling crazy they could offer up some bug bounties for the pain points they find! Because that’s the power of open source is if you have the knowhow you can go in and fix it!
I honestly suspect Linus just doesn’t want to change, and that’s why he keeps failing to actually give Linux a shot. This might be an unpopular opinion here but it’s okay if he doesn’t want to change, but he should not be trying to tear down the Linux community for content in the process
I don’t know if I agree that Linus’ decision making can be attributed to role playing as an “average user” so much as it being a case of too much experience hindering him. He’s someone who has been interacting with tech for his entire life and has become very proficient at it within his domain of knowledge. He is definitely someone who is used to tossing the user manual aside when he gets a new device and stumbling his way through until he groks it, and he is using that same approach with Linux. This ends up meaning that he just does stuff that should work the way that he’s used to (i.e. follows the Windows paradigm) and then runs into problems because of it. I think that a lot of his issues basically stem from his ego not permitting him to take a step back to re-learn some of the fundamentals, or least map them onto his Windows-focused mental model.
All that said, Linux distros have varying levels of issues and quirks that have to be learned/dealt with, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with pointing those pain points out. Linus just needs to take a step back and realise that he’s going to have to actually learn something if he wants to be successful.
On the other hand though, Linus isn’t exactly an ‘average user’, having spent most of his life working in the IT industry. I’m not sure it’s completely fair judging him as if he was a random clueless person either.
My issue is the categorization which in turn paints a picture on a lot of OSes. Call it a Pop OS challenge, or debian challenge, etc. In people’s minds there is windows, ios, and everything else is “linux”. Just leaves a bad taste. Just like in your comment you’re broadly painting “linux” issues as if windows or such doesn’t also run into problems at times (especially with windows updates lately).
In the talk show they do, he talked about how even with the issues he loves Pop OS and even mentioned that very argument–that he has problems with Windows too, and at least this way one of those problems isn’t copilot.
99% of Linux distros behave the same for the most part. There are outliers, like immutables, or NixOS, but whether you’re using Ubuntu, PopOS, Kubuntu, or Mint, your experience with the “linuxness” of your OS will be mostly identical. I’m not talking about things like “the DE looks different”, or the overall “look and feel”, I’m talking about software compatibility, driver compatibility, etc.
You could, I guess, argue if they should say “we’re testing a Debian based distro” instead of “Linux”, but that’s about it.
As already mentioned, Ubuntu/PopOS/Kubuntu/Mint are maybe the four most identical distros in the entire ecosystem. But your point really does hold true even with less-identical distros.
Currently, I have an Ubuntu Server, an Arch PC, and an old laptop “test machine” running Fedora. These are totally different limbs of the Linux family tree, but things pretty much work the same in all of them. The main difference is the package manager: Apt vs Pacman vs DNF. But like, they’re all doing basically the same thing under the hood: checking your installed software against some repository to see if anything needs an update. The actual workflow is pretty much the same with any of them.
After that it’s pretty much just a question of downloading the desktop environment and software you like. Or finding a distro that comes pre-installed with what you want. To make a gaming analogy: linux distros are like Dark Souls classes: starting stats and equipment, but the starting point doesn’t lock you into your you build in the future.
They are similar overall, yes. Skills and knowledge also transfers between distros. The experience can vary significantly.
If your hardware is correctly detected gets the correct drivers including non free firmware installed, and is correctly configured varies wildly.
For some distros you might have to switch to the iwd instead of networkmanager for wifi to work correctly. You might have to disable powersaving on your wifi or Bluetooth to work correctly. If keyboard backlight works out of the box also varies. Bluetooth audio without cracks, distortion, artifacts might also need tweaking of bluetooth or wifi. Some drivers might only work well with certain kernel versions too.
Software compatibility has gotten a lot better thanks to flatpak and appimage. However having a current version in the package manager instead of having to search for it is nice. Even then you might have to try several options until you find one that works.
The quality of the documentation and the user community also matters a lot in practice. Do they yell at noobs to RTFM or answer welcoming and politely?
For some distros you might have to switch to the iwd instead of networkmanager for wifi to work correctly. You might have to disable powersaving on your wifi or Bluetooth to work correctly (…)
And unless the people doing the “let’s use Linux for however many days” challenge have that specific issue, they won’t learn about it anyway.
On top of that - even if they said “OK, we’re using specifically Mint for 30 days”, and then you go out and try Mint, YOU might end up with massive issues, because your hardware is not supported properly.
They’d have to specify the OS and the hardware if you want a “reproducible experience”.
The quality of the documentation and the user community also matters a lot in practice. Do they yell at noobs to RTFM or answer welcoming and politely?
In my experience, after looking through r/Linux, r/Linux4noobs, or the various Linux communities on Lemmy - you’re going to get yelled at no matter the distro. It’s a matter of timing and luck (who’s currently online, and are they having a good day).
The culture of different distros matters. Lots of people had issues with Manjaro because the devs let their certificates expire. Other distros weren’t affected by that.
This really shouldn’t be a hot take but I think the people here will disagree. “Linus unironically did nothing wrong in his linux challenge video” The linux community really shouldnt act like he was using it wrong because its a terrible look.
No reasonable person can pretend there are no issues with linux. Sure you can get good at using linux and not run into these issues but they still exist and people will still run into them and you shouldnt blame the person.
I don’t think LTT’s approach is bad exactly. I really just take issue with their argument that “there are thousands of ‘switching to Linux’ videos on YouTube, so we don’t need to cover that ground again.” It’s ignoring the fact that, for better or worse, they have the biggest audience and furthest reach in the space. There’s still room for “we’re approaching this like normies would,” but I really think they need to close it up with “if you want to do this, here’s how to do it right.”
The big problem is Linus decides to pretend to be some “average user” when he isn’t one, and therefore ends up making absolutely bonkers decisions. It was super obvious in the last video because Linus was the only one participating who had major issues, and the only one participating who pretended to know nothing.
If they actually wanted to give Linux an honest shot and see if they can replace windows on one or more of their computers, the format would be entirely different. I think the format would probably start with a Q&A session with a well known Linux YouTuber like Wendel (who they still appear to have a good working relationship with) where they get the initial “here’s what you need to know and what I recommend for the best experience right now” then a check in call after 24 hours, 72 hours, 1 week and 2 weeks where they touch base, discuss pain points and how to alleviate them. Such a format would give an easy transition as well as great advise for the audience, but still present plenty of opportunity to directly see real world pain points and rough edges but instead of those rough edges being “haha Linux bad” they can instead be “here’s how to overcome them” or “this is an area that needs some developer time, anyone want to dive into improving this?” And maybe if they were really feeling crazy they could offer up some bug bounties for the pain points they find! Because that’s the power of open source is if you have the knowhow you can go in and fix it!
I honestly suspect Linus just doesn’t want to change, and that’s why he keeps failing to actually give Linux a shot. This might be an unpopular opinion here but it’s okay if he doesn’t want to change, but he should not be trying to tear down the Linux community for content in the process
I don’t know if I agree that Linus’ decision making can be attributed to role playing as an “average user” so much as it being a case of too much experience hindering him. He’s someone who has been interacting with tech for his entire life and has become very proficient at it within his domain of knowledge. He is definitely someone who is used to tossing the user manual aside when he gets a new device and stumbling his way through until he groks it, and he is using that same approach with Linux. This ends up meaning that he just does stuff that should work the way that he’s used to (i.e. follows the Windows paradigm) and then runs into problems because of it. I think that a lot of his issues basically stem from his ego not permitting him to take a step back to re-learn some of the fundamentals, or least map them onto his Windows-focused mental model.
All that said, Linux distros have varying levels of issues and quirks that have to be learned/dealt with, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with pointing those pain points out. Linus just needs to take a step back and realise that he’s going to have to actually learn something if he wants to be successful.
What do you mean it’s possible for a multi millionaire ceo with a mansion and a private jet to lose touch and not want to change? Preposterous.
On the other hand though, Linus isn’t exactly an ‘average user’, having spent most of his life working in the IT industry. I’m not sure it’s completely fair judging him as if he was a random clueless person either.
Weren’t people giving him commands, and he was running them without understanding what they did? Or am I thinking of somebody else?
Aha you were probably thinking of every one that is learning Linux ever born?
That’s what the average Linux noob or casual user does.
My issue is the categorization which in turn paints a picture on a lot of OSes. Call it a Pop OS challenge, or debian challenge, etc. In people’s minds there is windows, ios, and everything else is “linux”. Just leaves a bad taste. Just like in your comment you’re broadly painting “linux” issues as if windows or such doesn’t also run into problems at times (especially with windows updates lately).
In the talk show they do, he talked about how even with the issues he loves Pop OS and even mentioned that very argument–that he has problems with Windows too, and at least this way one of those problems isn’t copilot.
This is an extremely bad take.
99% of Linux distros behave the same for the most part. There are outliers, like immutables, or NixOS, but whether you’re using Ubuntu, PopOS, Kubuntu, or Mint, your experience with the “linuxness” of your OS will be mostly identical. I’m not talking about things like “the DE looks different”, or the overall “look and feel”, I’m talking about software compatibility, driver compatibility, etc.
You could, I guess, argue if they should say “we’re testing a Debian based distro” instead of “Linux”, but that’s about it.
As already mentioned, Ubuntu/PopOS/Kubuntu/Mint are maybe the four most identical distros in the entire ecosystem. But your point really does hold true even with less-identical distros.
Currently, I have an Ubuntu Server, an Arch PC, and an old laptop “test machine” running Fedora. These are totally different limbs of the Linux family tree, but things pretty much work the same in all of them. The main difference is the package manager: Apt vs Pacman vs DNF. But like, they’re all doing basically the same thing under the hood: checking your installed software against some repository to see if anything needs an update. The actual workflow is pretty much the same with any of them.
After that it’s pretty much just a question of downloading the desktop environment and software you like. Or finding a distro that comes pre-installed with what you want. To make a gaming analogy: linux distros are like Dark Souls classes: starting stats and equipment, but the starting point doesn’t lock you into your you build in the future.
NixOS is a different beast for sure.
They are similar overall, yes. Skills and knowledge also transfers between distros. The experience can vary significantly.
If your hardware is correctly detected gets the correct drivers including non free firmware installed, and is correctly configured varies wildly.
For some distros you might have to switch to the iwd instead of networkmanager for wifi to work correctly. You might have to disable powersaving on your wifi or Bluetooth to work correctly. If keyboard backlight works out of the box also varies. Bluetooth audio without cracks, distortion, artifacts might also need tweaking of bluetooth or wifi. Some drivers might only work well with certain kernel versions too.
Software compatibility has gotten a lot better thanks to flatpak and appimage. However having a current version in the package manager instead of having to search for it is nice. Even then you might have to try several options until you find one that works.
The quality of the documentation and the user community also matters a lot in practice. Do they yell at noobs to RTFM or answer welcoming and politely?
Did you just say Ubuntu four times?
And unless the people doing the “let’s use Linux for however many days” challenge have that specific issue, they won’t learn about it anyway.
On top of that - even if they said “OK, we’re using specifically Mint for 30 days”, and then you go out and try Mint, YOU might end up with massive issues, because your hardware is not supported properly.
They’d have to specify the OS and the hardware if you want a “reproducible experience”.
In my experience, after looking through r/Linux, r/Linux4noobs, or the various Linux communities on Lemmy - you’re going to get yelled at no matter the distro. It’s a matter of timing and luck (who’s currently online, and are they having a good day).
That was kind of my point.
Kind of, but some distros are still much more stable than others.
It’d be like only ever trying windows ME or vista, rather than 2000 or 7.
You’re still getting ‘the windows experience’, but you happen to be using one of the least stable options available. Much like choosing pop vs debian.
Depends on the hardware config mostly.
See? Here’s the problem - I installed PopOS on my old EliteBook to check it out and it’s been absolutely marvellous. Zero issues whatsoever.
At the same time, at work we have laptops that choke and panic under Debian.
The culture of different distros matters. Lots of people had issues with Manjaro because the devs let their certificates expire. Other distros weren’t affected by that.
It’s not a problem that’s going to pop-up during a “let’s use XYZ for ## days” challenge.
It literally did last time Linus tried due to a missing dependency for steam in the PoP!_OS repo.