I heard a story of someone who was at a gun show and some geniuses thought it would be a good idea to try and grab a bunch of rifles and just run for the doors, and of course about a dozen people drew down on them.
But then, that’s like, proliferated guns at a gun proliferation party preventing guns from being proliferated by a tiny degree more than they would have otherwise, so… that kind of feels like a net neutral, overall.
There was a case a few years ago where a good guy with a gun stopped a shooter. The bad guy apparently shot and killed a cop, and reportedly wanted to shoot other cops. The good guy shot & killed the bad guy.
Then the cops showed up and killed the good guy with the gun.
It happens occasionally, but it’s pretty rare. I heard a story some time back of a gunman who drove up on a birthday party or something, and a bystander shot them.
The rate is far lower than the rate of gun accidents, or even gun homicides though. It’s not an argument for lax gun laws. It just is an occasional side effect that can’t and shouldn’t be counted on.
I think John Oliver did a deep dive and found in the history of shootings, a small handful were stopped by “a good guy with a gun” while a significant number beyond that were stopped by people without guns.
He went further: the good guy with a gun often were used for disciplinary measures (read: send black students to the school resource officer) instead of guarding the place. Not only that, but in school shootings were more violent where there was good guy with a gun.
That’s actually incorrect, the lowest estimate for defensive gun use (by Harvard Phillip Cook using NCVS data, whoops), only counting verifiable police reports and completely discounting defensive display, the most common form of DGU) is 100,000/yr, while gun deaths including accidents, homicides, and suicides, are ~60,000/ yr. That’s still a difference of 40,000.
Also good to keep in mind, only 45% of Americans even own a gun, and only somewhere around 20% carry it ever, and even less carry everywhere every day. Combine that with many mass shootings taking place in schools which federally ban firearms or businesses which often have “no weapons” signs on the door (which depending on the state can actually be legally binding), with all of that the chances of there being a “good guy with a gun” in the first place are still pretty slim. If he’s a “good guy” even if he brought it he likely left it in the car in accordance with the law and posted signage on the mall (or whatever), and it can’t do any good there.
My mistake, it wasn’t Harvard, it was Phillip Cook using the NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey) Data. It’s only been 8yr since I read the article, please forgive my indiscretions. In my defense Harvard is also mentioned.
Needless to say I disagree with the disqualification of defensive display categorically, but understand why it would be done for official estimates (though that would mean the official would be purposefully low, by the nature if many of them not having police reports or being one’s word against another even if they exist there’s no real reliable way to collect those statistics, so I think it’s best to leave them out.) Mostly I think it should just be kept in mind that the official estimate is based off of incomplete data and is low, lest we end up with ridiculous estimates like 3,000,000.
And yet still, Harvard the NCVS data* (whoops lol) estimates defensive gun use as 40k higher than gun deaths, and that’s with less than 20% of Americans carrying daily. To say it’s so rare it’s a myth is to say all gun death (60k), gun homicide (12k), accidental gun injuries (~1,500) and deaths (~500), are also myths due to rarity. And also the OG Black Lotus card at 1,100 printed.
The rate is far lower than the rate of gun accidents, or even gun homicides though.
Is still indeed not true, regardless of if I misremembered just who said that one detail from 8y ago.
I mean you can disagree with the accredited crime researcher and the NCVS data he used (it is a move I guess) all you want, but I’ve posted the source where I got my claims, so “unsourced” is verifiably false, it’s right there.
More water = more people drown, it’s not any more difficult than that, ban water.
Good luck with that. The anti2a groups want those in the same category so that it pumps up the numbers. When 2/3rds (66+%) of your statistic of gun violence is based upon suicide. It’s not as catchy to use.
To be fair, once. We’ve seen it once. In all the years of mass shootings. That Texas church where the guy shot the killer from like 25m away while he was moving.
Not just once, it’s happened multiple times. There was also the one at the mall where the good guy was then mistakenly shot by the police, that one time 4 store patrons all pulled guns on an armed robber, those are just the ones that I can recall off the top of my head.
Actually Defensive Gun Use (hereafter DGU) estimates vary wildly, from the CDC (self) reported numbers by John Lott and Gary Kleck (500,000-3,000,000), to the more realistic estimate (based on verifiable police reports, and completely discounting the concept of defensive display) by Harvard Phillip Cook using the National Crime Victimization Survey data of 100,000 DGU/yr.
But in any case, by the lowest estimate we have, DGU still happens at least 100,000 "once"s per year, and more if we count defensive display (though that’s hard to get numbers on so I leave it out of the “official” count, it does still happen, and likely more often than bullets actually get fired.)
I’ve seen lots of videos of good guys without guns saving people from bad guys with guns, but I’ve never seen a “good guy” with a gun do jack shit.
It’s rare. Off duty SAS guy did work in Kenya that one time. Saved a bunch of people.
This is the only one I’ve seen. And she’s off-duty military police.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sao-paulo-armed-robber-shot-dead-brazil-school-gates-mother-children-a8350726.html
I heard a story of someone who was at a gun show and some geniuses thought it would be a good idea to try and grab a bunch of rifles and just run for the doors, and of course about a dozen people drew down on them.
But then, that’s like, proliferated guns at a gun proliferation party preventing guns from being proliferated by a tiny degree more than they would have otherwise, so… that kind of feels like a net neutral, overall.
And importantly, a guy running away.
And a theft, not an assault.
There was a case a few years ago where a good guy with a gun stopped a shooter. The bad guy apparently shot and killed a cop, and reportedly wanted to shoot other cops. The good guy shot & killed the bad guy.
Then the cops showed up and killed the good guy with the gun.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/28/colorado-gunman-police-officer-killed
It happens occasionally, but it’s pretty rare. I heard a story some time back of a gunman who drove up on a birthday party or something, and a bystander shot them.
The rate is far lower than the rate of gun accidents, or even gun homicides though. It’s not an argument for lax gun laws. It just is an occasional side effect that can’t and shouldn’t be counted on.
I think John Oliver did a deep dive and found in the history of shootings, a small handful were stopped by “a good guy with a gun” while a significant number beyond that were stopped by people without guns.
He went further: the good guy with a gun often were used for disciplinary measures (read: send black students to the school resource officer) instead of guarding the place. Not only that, but in school shootings were more violent where there was good guy with a gun.
That’s actually incorrect, the lowest estimate for defensive gun use (by
HarvardPhillip Cook using NCVS data, whoops), only counting verifiable police reports and completely discounting defensive display, the most common form of DGU) is 100,000/yr, while gun deaths including accidents, homicides, and suicides, are ~60,000/ yr. That’s still a difference of 40,000.Also good to keep in mind, only 45% of Americans even own a gun, and only somewhere around 20% carry it ever, and even less carry everywhere every day. Combine that with many mass shootings taking place in schools which federally ban firearms or businesses which often have “no weapons” signs on the door (which depending on the state can actually be legally binding), with all of that the chances of there being a “good guy with a gun” in the first place are still pretty slim. If he’s a “good guy” even if he brought it he likely left it in the car in accordance with the law and posted signage on the mall (or whatever), and it can’t do any good there.
That’s total bullshit.
Here’s what Harvard actually has to say about guns and it is 100% the opposite of what you’ve described.
https://hsph.harvard.edu/research/injury-control/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/
My mistake, it wasn’t Harvard, it was Phillip Cook using the NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey) Data. It’s only been 8yr since I read the article, please forgive my indiscretions. In my defense Harvard is also mentioned.
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/602143823/how-often-do-people-use-guns-in-self-defense
Needless to say I disagree with the disqualification of defensive display categorically, but understand why it would be done for official estimates (though that would mean the official would be purposefully low, by the nature if many of them not having police reports or being one’s word against another even if they exist there’s no real reliable way to collect those statistics, so I think it’s best to leave them out.) Mostly I think it should just be kept in mind that the official estimate is based off of incomplete data and is low, lest we end up with ridiculous estimates like 3,000,000.
And yet still,
Harvardthe NCVS data* (whoops lol) estimates defensive gun use as 40k higher than gun deaths, and that’s with less than 20% of Americans carrying daily. To say it’s so rare it’s a myth is to say all gun death (60k), gun homicide (12k), accidental gun injuries (~1,500) and deaths (~500), are also myths due to rarity. And also the OG Black Lotus card at 1,100 printed.Is still indeed not true, regardless of if I misremembered just who said that one detail from 8y ago.
Again, your unsourced bullshit is not an actual summation of verifiable data.
It’s just right-wing talking points, dude, with the veneer of pseudoscience.
More guns = more people die from guns. It’s not any more difficult than that.
I mean you can disagree with the accredited crime researcher and the NCVS data he used (it is a move I guess) all you want, but I’ve posted the source where I got my claims, so “unsourced” is verifiably false, it’s right there.
More water = more people drown, it’s not any more difficult than that, ban water.
You can keep posting right-wing jerkoff fantasy as much as you want. Doesn’t change the fact that the guy got his science wrong.
Gun deaths are on average 40k not 60k. We’ve never even hit 50k a year.
Rest what you said is true.
r/dgu subreddit collects all the known good guy with a gun articles as well.
can we please move gun suicides to their own category
Good luck with that. The anti2a groups want those in the same category so that it pumps up the numbers. When 2/3rds (66+%) of your statistic of gun violence is based upon suicide. It’s not as catchy to use.
truth
and gun violence in schools stands fine on it’s own
anyone seeing those numbers should be disgusted enough
To be fair, once. We’ve seen it once. In all the years of mass shootings. That Texas church where the guy shot the killer from like 25m away while he was moving.
Jesus YouTube tried to delete this from history. Sorry about the Reddit link.
Not just once, it’s happened multiple times. There was also the one at the mall where the good guy was then mistakenly shot by the police, that one time 4 store patrons all pulled guns on an armed robber, those are just the ones that I can recall off the top of my head.
Actually Defensive Gun Use (hereafter DGU) estimates vary wildly, from the CDC (self) reported numbers by John Lott and Gary Kleck (500,000-3,000,000), to the more realistic estimate (based on verifiable police reports, and completely discounting the concept of defensive display) by
HarvardPhillip Cook using the National Crime Victimization Survey data of 100,000 DGU/yr.But in any case, by the lowest estimate we have, DGU still happens at least 100,000 "once"s per year, and more if we count defensive display (though that’s hard to get numbers on so I leave it out of the “official” count, it does still happen, and likely more often than bullets actually get fired.)
Let’s stay on topic.
This guy is a hero.
What they said is the topic.