“Pissing in the soup” doesn’t really work here unless you’re adulterating the software with something malicious.
This was in response to rsync having horrible new bugs from vibe coding that were so bad that people thought they had malware. Does the intent matter when the end result is the same?
Holy crap I thought rsync is a super serious and professional program. Didn’t thought they ruin it with vibecodeing.
A lot of important infra depends rsync.
I believe serious one is openrsync, the openbsd fork that does NOT have vibe-coding.
You mean like near every program?
If you don’t like it, fuck it or fork off
Funny, that nearly tracks for the US, except it’d need to feed said homeless first. So far, it’s just pissing on us poors. No soup.
Obligatory “No soup for you!”
I’d give up soup if the piss’d stop raining, flooding, rotting everything we’re each trying to work on. ✊🏼
The gilded shower.
Tell you what that Rsync thread is just a goldmine.
While I’m generally not one to complain about something I’m getting for free, and I do understand the dev wanting to make more efficient use of their time…
I don’t think people are wrong here expressing their annoyance at what was previously feature complete and stable software being vibe-code updated into a buggy mess.
… And that’s without mentioning the ethical and security issues posed by vibe-coded software.
But if the chef wants oranges in the pea soup, and you don’t like that, it’s fair to say go to another soup kitchen.
Except that his idea of oranges is piss.
If it’s about AI slop pull requests, it’s more akin to a microwaved orange tbf.
Mmm warm orange juice and toothpaste!
And when everyone starts to avoid that soup kitchen, it makes the chef a dick
Depends if you are upfront about it or not
…Regardless of the code assistant, I’m not seeing any cause for alarm in my personal usage, yet. Feature requests and issues are getting closed, even urgent security ones that shouldn’t have been posted in that manner:
https://github.com/RsyncProject/rsync/issues/871
https://github.com/RsyncProject/rsync/issues/882
Seems like business as usual:
https://social.treehouse.systems/@thesamesam/116662824873341085
One thing I will say on rsync is that regressions aren’t new with it. It does something hard: it has to deal with symlinks. Releases have often had regressions for a long time, especially for security fixes, and it long predates LLMs, because symlinks are hard. Of course seeing a gazillion Claude commits still makes me uncomfortable, but it’s important to see what’s new as well.
I suspect this might be from the jqwik thing going on right now. The maintainer of that library added some anti-AI “fuck you” code to delete vibe coders’ “work”
They didn’t add any code to jqwik. It was just an instruction. A string.
Does that really make a difference?
Yes? If it had been in the readme it would have worked the exact same way. It’s not code, they aren’t pissing in anything. Literally no one but an AI would have a problem with it.
yes. normal usage works as expected
This is rsync. The “piss” refers to AI code contributions.
Could also be rsync, recent vibe coding changes there broke things and maintainer is also getting pretty annoyed with the comments.
This is from rsync repo.
Unsure if they’re talking about rsync introducing AI code and breaking. Or that dev that introduced code that broke systems using AI.
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I remember reading an article where the author explained why telling this is free, you can fork, or send a pull request instead of complaining is a form of ableism.
An analogy, which is not 100% accurate, which I used to explain it to ither people is, "it is not very different from a carpenter telling you, ‘the wood is here, the tools also, you can do it yourself it you didn’t like what I did’.
The point is software development is a skill. Not everyone can have that skill. It takes training and practice to be good in the craft. A user of the product does not need the skill to operate it. Never think it is okay to tell people “just fork it” or “why don’t you send a pull request instead of complaining?”.
At the same time, I completely acknowledge that there are some entitled assholes who don’t understand or care about the open source philosophy and how it works. I just wanted to point out that asking to contribute or asking to fork is not the right way to address it.
Ugh, chicken? Give me some free steak. Chop chop!
That is ridiculous.
If I want to paint apples, and you want a painting of pears, it’s not ableist for me to tell you no. It’s not ablist to iterate out your possible options for getting a pear painting either. And that’s what he’s done.
Now, the entire painting profession might be ableist in that there are certainly barriers to entry. But it’s not a single artist’s responsibility to fix painting as a whole.
My point is, if you truly think the situation with raync is ableist, help develop tools so that more people can program. Enable people to program. Don’t just shout down the guy who said “go program”. That doesn’t help.
Except that in your analogy, the carpenter was working on his own passion project for free.
Exactly. No one expects free work from carpenters, artists, chefs, etc. But for some reason it’s fine to demand things from free software devs?
Not really. This is not about money but about skill. Hence I said this is not 100% accurate and added a proper explanation.
Open source is not about money. The philosophy and culture around it is centered around a set of values. It’s free as in freedom.
The same skills used to develop free software can be used to earn a lot of money making corporate software. The same is true for other professions: they can work for an employer, be self-employed, or volunteer their time. The analogy fits, and we all need to earn money to survive.
Isn’t a lot of the freedom the ability to fork and make your own version if you don’t think the original version fits your needs?
The carpenter’s “passion project” has turned into a bridge on the city’s main thoroughfare. And now he’s got this great idea for letting a robot maintain it.
The robot’s last job was at the trap door factory.
People are concerned. “My cousin fell through a trap door on the bridge yesterday!” But the carpenter is clear: “Go build your own bridge, then.”
It’s still his bridge in his yard even if he had been letting everyone use it.
It’s not his problem. He’s handing out free bridges to everyone. But people want him to build his bridge their way and keep using his bridge.
If he wants to ruin his personal project, that’s his right.
in his yard
The whole point of giving it away is that it won’t just be in his yard anymore.
that’s his right
Yep, you can argue that the carpenter is within his rights. That’s always a sign that the actor in question is behaving in a constructive way, isn’t it, when the best defense is to run directly to the finer points of what that actor is legally permitted to do?
“That’s his right” is a very narrow lens with which to view the situation. It’s not a POV you’d even choose to bring to the discussion unless you had already decided on the question. It does nothing to address the real-world problems and complaints that are happening. It’s pretty much changing the subject.
Would you make the same “within their rights” argument if the carpenter was Google? Microsoft?
people want him to build his bridge their way and keep using his bridge.
I don’t think that’s accurate. People who rely on rsync want some kind of clear path forward, the option to use something similar in quality to the older versions. If that’s not the original rsync project run by the orginal rsync developer, no one will care much.
It would have been possible for the developer to turn over mainline rsync to someone else, and to go down his AI powered rabbit hole on his own. He could have done all the stuff that was “his right” without being disruptive.
People who rely on rsync want some kind of clear path forward, the option to use something similar in quality to the older versions.
That’s literally what forking it is for.
The guy built the bridge 20 years ago. It became a mainline thoroughfare for the entire city, and he maintained it for free. Now he’s automating it and people don’t like that. They can build their own bridges, or use the one he maintains and either contribute to the project or stop complaining about it not being up to their standards. It’s a free bridge.
You’re looking in the mouth of a gift horse.
You’re looking in the mouth of a gift horse.
Show me.
What? Do you not know what the expression means?
The guy maintains it for free. It’s a gift horse. You’re complaining about the quality. That’s looking the horse in the mouth.
If you don’t want this horse, find a different one or breed your own.
It would have been possible for the developer to turn over mainline rsync
It’s his code. There is no mainline rsync. Whatever the community picks is mainline. When people didn’t like where MySQL was going, they forked and made MariaDB the “mainline”.
If people keep downloading his rsync and not another, that’s their choice. We might not like it but you can’t force people to use the software you prefer.
Every time something like this happens, there’s a community outcry: “What a shitty thing to do!”
And every time, there’s a chorus of wannabe libertarians that come crawling out of the woodwork shrieking “HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO SCREW US OVER.” As if that’s a counterpoint to anything at all. As if that’s making a contribution to any conversation.
Communists understand the difference between private property and personal property.
He didn’t screw anyone over. The non ai version is still there. Demanding that he change what he has written into a form that you find acceptable is as silly as my demanding that you write a reply that agrees with me.
Analogies are shit and don’t prove anything.
Opinions are shit and don’t prove anything.
Are you talking about your opinion?
I’m completely aware about that. Hence the acknowledgement and explanation in the first comment itself.
A paraplegic can’t build a house, but can learn to code.
Sure there are people with cognitive disabilities who might not be able to do it, but you can’t expect every open source project to be completely accessible even to the most severely cognitively impaired. That’s a great way to kill the open source community.
Commerical products should absolutely be required by law to provide reasonable accessibility, because they have the resources and manpower to do so and are driven by a profit motive. Grants should be available to help smaller companies meet these requirements so they’re not disadvantaged relative to the big ones.
But using ableism to justify making excessive demands on open-source project maintainers who in many cases are doing it solo and for free as a passion project, is kind of absurd. And where does it stop? Can I post a silly little flash game on a public git repo intended as nothing more than a personal project for learning Lua scripts, and then some internet rando tells me I have to add full interpretive ASL, real-time alternative text, and optional eye-tracking controls? If that’s above my level, does that mean I can’t post my silly little flash game?
Also, ability is not the same thing as aptitude. Not knowing how to code isn’t a disability any more than not knowing how to wire a house. I can’t tell an electrician (specifically a hobbyist who works for free) that he needs to rewire my house for me just because I don’t know how to do it. I can learn home wiring, or I can pay a professional. But expecting every hobbyist to serve my needs for free just because I don’t have their skill sets would be insane.
But expecting every hobbyist to serve my needs for free just because I don’t have their skill sets would be insane.
I think this mindset shows up often on the Internet because many posters are children. It is normal for them to be given an assignment and have to complete it without compensation. So they think that’s how the world works.
I think many adults are capable of having the mentalities of children, especially when it’s effectively taboo to gently correct behavior.
Abuse is wrong and shouldn’t be tolerated, obviously, but we’ve overcorrected as a society. Teachers, parents, mentors, etc. need to have effective ways of setting ground rules without demeaning and belittling like was so common when I was growing up, or physical violence like the generations before mine experienced.
It just takes some emotional intelligence. It’s possible. Families like that exist, they’re just the exceptions rather than the rule. And people from those healthier backgrounds are by far the more well-adjusted members of society as adults.
I like this analogy. One virtue that it has is: Obviously, not everyone can realistically learn to do their own carpentry. It requires a certain amount of time, space, opportunity, capacity for spatial reasoning, and some minimum level of able-bodiedness. None of which are universally available to everyone.
Not his problem. You didn’t pay the carpenter.
So the fact that not everyone can be a carpenter would become the carpenter’s problem, if I had paid him?
Huh?
Yes. That’s how everything works. If you don’t know how to build a shelf by yourself or don’t have the time, you pay a carpenter to do what you want.
It’s now the carpenter’s problem to make the shelf with the specifications that you gave him.
You’re so self-righteous, you’re plowing through stuff without reading what you’re responding to. This isn’t what you said before, and even your clarification makes no sense in context.
It doesn’t work, anyway. If you can’t build the shelf yourself, what compels the carpenter to make it to your specifications? Even if you paid him? Nothing.
The trouble is, you insist on framing this in terms of the carpenter’s rights. It’s an impoverished view. No one else is looking at it that way, no one is disputing his rights.
You’re so self-righteous
No need for insults.
what compels the carpenter to make it to your specifications? Even if you paid him? Nothing.
Violating a contract has penalties. Yes he can ignore it and then give your money back with the potential of being required to give extra money back because of the contract violation.
The trouble is, you insist on framing this in terms of the carpenter’s rights.
It wasn’t my analogy. I’m working with what you gave me.
disputing his rights.
Demanding he work for free is disputing his rights.
Demanding he work for free
Where is this happening?
Except you’re not exactly homeless, are you?
Yes. If you’re giving soup to someone who isn’t homeless, you are allowed to pee in it. It’s in UN Charter.
Tbh: Sounds american. We the pee-ople.
I think it’s pronounced pee-pole.
pee pull
Except you’re not really given the soup. It’s just there for your taking, with a sign “contains piss”.
I’m just permanently surprised by the entitlement of people smh
How much free stuff did you create in your life, piss or not?
And then the restaurant down the street that doesn’t give two shits takes the soup and uses it to make their own stock and serve it to you without the warning. And when the other three restaurants and the soup kitchen see THAT restaurant taking it, they ignore the sign that says “contains piss” because surely, if that first guy was using it it can’t be that bad, and even it it is, well, they can’t get us ALL if we ALL do it, right?
This is actually a post about artificial sweeteners.
The AI powered bugs that have been showing up in rsync were not disclosed in advance. There was no “contains piss” sign, nor is such a practice a realistic possibility.
He also didn’t delete the old version. So there’s two soups for free, one labeled with piss and one labeled piss free.
People could take the piss free version.
Basic decency isn’t entitlement, it’s the very much ignored minimum standard.
I made an album you can have for free 🤷♂️
Does this mean we should take the rest of the analogy literally then?
If you can point to any part of the analogy that’s valuable, I’m happy to go along. But this post is like breaking into someone’s home and shitting on their table. There, I can analogy too.
Sorry if that upset you, I was just trying to post something funny.
Unacceptable. Into the cage with you.
