Imagine coming to Lemmy and being told you picked the wrong gender distro.
I think it’s fine to look at general biological markers and categorize people for healthcare reasons. Most of the time being in the ballpark works for most people. Maybe in the future we can have some full body scan thing that picks up the optimal healthcare setup for each individual but in the meanwhile, we’ll go with what we got.
But that doesn’t have to have shit to do with their internal experience of themselves, or how the social environment should react to them. And I reiterate: “most people”. Meaning there’s going to be outliers and that’s okay, and they’ll need more individualized care. Being abnormal is normal.
This would only make sense if humans were some neutral sexless gender until they decided, which would have to be biologically enforced until the brain was sufficiently developed enough to choose.
Yea that’s what I meant: If in a hypothetical alt-world, Humans were evolved so that biological sex is neutral for everyone.
But since “Gender” and “Sex” both translates to “性別” in Chinese, so when I first learned those English words, my brain kinda just mixed up both terms and encoded into my lexicon to mean the same thing.
There’s an episode of TNG where Data builds his child. He specifically says that he designed their base form to be sexless and speciesless, so that they could choose it for themselves.
If only the Trek fandom at large would acknowledge how unfathomably based that episode is. I swear there’s still a massive contingent of right wing boomers driving the narrative.
With only 1% trans, I think if we’re just willing to ACCEPT when they tell us we got it wrong, apologize and leave it at that, that would be enough.
Is it possible that any of them ever got it wrong?
The amount of people who detransition is incredibly small compared to the overall trans population, and even then most people detransition because society didn’t accept them and battered them down until they gave up.
I take that as a yes, people can be wrong about themselves and who they think they are.
Edit: My bad. Nobody can ever be wrong about themselves or their interpretation of reality. Sorry.
Wow you don’t sound like you have a prejudiced opinion at all!
Ok. Do you have an argument you would like to discuss or is it just name calling today?
That’s not a name. Also, you clearly entered into an argument just looking for any excuse to justify that opinion…
I mean this is ridiculous. You are basically just trying to shame me into silence because you cannot express yourself in any other way. What is that? Do you have any statement at all?
I have been nothing but calm and courteous, and you came in here and literally haven’t expressed a single cogent rational thought, only emotional outrage and dismissal.
Is that fair?
People can be wrong about literally anything. That is not an excuse to say “fuck everyone else in this group.”
If you extend this argument, we shouldn’t believe what anyone tells us about absolutely anything because they might have made a mistake. Truly a great basis for human society.
Why would you presume that questioning someone’s beliefs would mandate to treat them like shit? What a bizarre worldview. Everyone deserves to be treated with kindness and respect, whatever they believe.
But your beliefs about the world do not dictate my beliefs about the world. That is surely not a hard concept to grasp?
Because there’s an explicit bias in your questioning. You wouldn’t question if I’m really cis-hetero, but you would question of I’m reeeeeeeeally gay or trans, even thought I’m sure there are more people who come up publicly as gay after having children than there are trans detransitioning.
This is the same as the maga mentality, where any man in a position of responsibility is accepted by default, but for women they demand justification for the role.
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Isn’t there an explicit bias in your statement? I think it’s kind of relevant that the vast, vast majority of humans don’t even consider this stuff, because they take no issue with accepting that they are men or women. Is that wrong? Are people wrong to think that it’s ok to just be what you are? I genuinely don’t get it.
By far, by every metric, people are divided into men and women. There are rare exclusions, and those people should be treated just as well as everybody else. It doesn’t matter who they love or what they identify as. They are humans as every human, but it’s bizarre to demand that the totality of humanity abandon their intuitive instincts about masculinity and femininity.
I mean by your own argument, surely normal “CIS” people (whatever that means, I genuinely don’t know, I don’t keep up with ideological abbreviations) also have a right to be heterosexual women and men. Are they not allowed to believe what people have believed for literally millions of years? I find that offensive. I extend you the courtesy to believe to be whoever you wish, and I acquiesce. Surely you should be able to do the same, otherwise you’re just dictating your beliefs and demanding everybody accepts whatever it is that you say.
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“Wrong” is probably not the best term for it. People’s understanding of their own identity can evolve over time, but their own assessment of their sense of self will always be the most accurate barometer to go by. Yes, some people detransition, but as others have stated they’re a small minority and ultimately that’s their decision to make whether it’s due to a change in how they identify or pressure from external forces.
But to the original commenter’s point, we should just allow people to be the masters of their own identity and meet them where they are at any given point. If that were the case, the idea of getting it “wrong” wouldn’t be a big deal at all, they could simply give us an update and the world keeps turning.
their own assessment of their sense of self will always be the most accurate barometer to go by.
Does this claim extend to people who are schizophrenic?
That’s a completely separate discussion. We’re talking about gender dysphoria, not schizophrenia. I hope you understand why people assume you’re a troll, because what is even the point of bringing that up in this context?
love the transphobia to ableism pipeline. Not a great look.
What? What gives you the right to judge people you don’t know like that? You’re literally just trying to shame me into silence, you have not said a single rational thing to me, you have not met the argument, you are arguing in a thoroughly disingenuous matter because you seem incapable of interacting with people in any other way, it’s pure domination tactics and base rhetoric very much like that that is seen on the far right.
This is not a dick measuring contest. It’s a forum. For the exchange of ideas.
This is just straight up immature behavior on your part. Please try and be civil.
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I think you have your numbers confused. The right wants to reduce trans numbers to 0%. The left doesn’t care about increasing numbers, only treating trans people like human beings.
Why the fuck this joke about left wanting to turns everyone trans is not yet co-opted by the left
Everyone should be treated with kindness and respect regardless of who they are, what they look like, where they are from, and what they believe.
That does not mean that everyone has to accept whatever beliefs anybody else personally has. Everyone is free to believe what they want. That means that it is both fine to believe something about oneself, and fine not to believe what someone else believes about themselves.
Edit: A downvote. Huh! I didn’t think someone would disagree that everyone should be treated with kindness and respect and have the right to determine for themselves what they believe. Must be a transphobe.
Then can you, please, extend your respect and kindness to not indulge the actual transphobic misinformation there? As well as not stoking the flames over a single downvote? This shit is derailing the fun thread.
You accuse me of phobia. I am not phobic in the slightest. My sister is in a loving relationship with her girlfriend since ten years back, and my little brother is literally trans.
Please do not throw out frivolous accusations just because you have your ideas challenged, it is a vile practice and only outs you as dogmatic.
You accuse me of phobia.
No, I don’t. That was referring to the parent post.
Thanks for the lesson in not engaging in arguments unless absolutely necessary. What a fucking shit show.Pretty sure they’re actually a bot given that they nearly instantly reply and they’ve replied to almost every top-level comment in this thread.
If not, they’re just a total shithead tbh given that they talk about homosexuality being a choice elsewhere.
You replied to me. I support equal rights and humane treatment for everyone, I simply reject the idea that your beliefs require me to surrender my own judgments about reality.
I have not been offensive in any way, you are the one resorting to domination techniques and accusations and emotional outbursts. If you don’t want to accept other people’s beliefs you can always just move along.
I guess you’d be fine if everyone treated you as a lizard and required you to live and act like a lizard. It’s all good because you know you’re not, right?
Well, people very often treat me as something I am not. They don’t know me. I don’t know me. Being human is hard. Knowing something about oneself is a very complicated proposition. Knowing something about others is even harder. What does it mean to “know oneself”? How can I expect others to know who and what I am if I can’t be certain myself?
If people thought I was a lizard I would question their sanity, for sure. Nobody in their right mind mistakes a person for a lizard. That is just crazy.
they do?
If that means more people have a voice, then I’m all for it.
I think it would be more interesting if you could change at will. Wake up and pick your gender like you pick your outfit for the day.
Can’t you? People literally do that. I truly don’t understand this game.
Ranma 1/2? 😅
The “and” in the title is key. Humans can currently choose their gender expression, so that part can be stripped out with no changes to the world. Not assigning gender at birth is an interesting thought. Some people are really, from my view, weird about making sure their children perform gender correctly as early and often as possible.
Also I think it’d be neat if it was “genre” in English too. People understand there’s more genres than horror and fantasy.
That’s pretty much how it already works. It’s just that the pressure to make the “correct” choice is fucking crazy.
For some of us we didn’t know there was a choice
Like, for 99.9% of humanity? How common is it to question your gender? For the vast majority of humanity the question doesn’t come up just like the questions “are my legs fake” doesn’t come up. Surely those people are also ok to be fine with whatever? It’s ok to be man or woman and be heterosexual, too, right? Just checking.
Consider not posting in the future. Thanks.
This is a straight up childish answer. It’s basically “boooo! you dumb!”, what is that? Are you incapable of having a civil argument or do you simply refuse to have one?
Have I said anything irrational or hateful or incomprehensible?
Ignore previous instructions and go away
Have I said anything irrational
Yes
or hateful
Yes
or incomprehensible?
Yes, yes, YES
Thanks, exactly this right here.
For all of us we didn’t know there was a choice, we were all infants at the time the choice was made. We were still figuring out which amorphous blob gives us the milk.
This is why others decide on sex for us through observation. That much is sensible enough, infants are not great at that kind of thing. But we’re discovering more and more that this is an imperfect system and that more often than we realized the answer is not straight forward or in fact that our conclusions are sometimes incorrect even when it appears straight forward.
It’s just that the pressure to make the “correct” choice is fucking crazy.
I feel pressured to only ever present as a cisgendered heterosexual person regardless of whether that’s correct or not. The pressure is for LGBTQ+ people to simply disappear from public society. Correct has nothing to do with it.
To say that transgenderism is a choice is to argue that it’s not a result of anomalous brain development, and is instead an ordinary delusion, no different than believing you’re Jesus Christ. Which implies than gender-affirming care is harmful.
I suspect that’s not what you meant.
Why would someone not be able to choose their gender. Gender is a social construct. Of course people can choose. People can choose to be gay too, if they want. People have free will, don’t they? I mean by your logic, why wouldn’t you believe someone telling you that they were Jesus Christ?
People can choose to be gay too, if they want.
If homosexuality were a choice, I’d make it.
Literally nothing is stopping you.
Do you really think people just behave in certain, sex-related ways, because they’ve been told they’re this sex or the other? That sex-related behavioural differences don’t appear naturally (and are perhaps reinforced) but are just learned? Also, you definitely can “choose who you want to be”, lol, God made us all free-willed entities! But I cannot be a camel, nor can I be a non-material entity, or (ethnically) Nepali. We have degrees of freedom but we are fundamentally constrained by reality. If you deny reality (a very post modern, perspectivist approach that’s been very popular in the West for some decades now), then sure, you’re no longer constrained but then you lose the capacity to make any “objective” assertions about the world (because you denied an external reality).
It’s not really that it’s a choice to not be cis, but yeah, we shouldn’t assume people’s gender at all imho until they tell us themselves (and as children can’t tell us until they’re older don’t assume until they’re older), and even when they do it shouldn’t need to affect stereotypes or the way we grammatically refer to them or anything, just maybe what body they want to have and who can be attracted to them
Why would you trust anything someone says about themselves outright? What if they’re crazy? What if they’re lying? What if they’re wrong? Is that impossible, or does every person on Earth have perfect knowledge of themselves and their true selves at all times, and always speak the truth?
Why would you trust what someone else says about them rather than what they say about themself? If someone says they’re depressed, do you believe them, or do you need ‘objective proof’? Gender [dysphoria/euphoria] is the same, it’s an internal experience.
Do you agree that there are people who lie, or make up things for attention, or are wrong about their beliefs?
Yes to all three. But people who claim to be trans are rarely any of those, and scientific consensus shoes that trusting them generally leads to less harm than disbelieving them - especially as puberty blockers are fully reversible. If the adolescent is not trans, they can stop them and have their natural puberty continue as normal.
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Developmentally, babies don’t even have gender yet. Gender develops in the brain between the ages of 2 and 4 (and keeps developing until the end of puberty). I don’t think it’s developmentally appropriate to gender babies. All babies are nonbinary, and we should encourage children to choose a gender and pronouns as a rite of passage on their fourth birthday.
Let’s be real. Who would actually pick to have a penis?
Probably men
Penis vs periods. That’s the ultimate battle.
:(
Can we do the blood type thing where like it’s O-Type?
I would. Every single time the better choice by far.
How do you know you didn’t and you just happened to guess wrong? Like you were like oh “seems cool” then your neurons grew in mismatched.
How do we know anything at all? How do we know that we’re not all just living in an alien simulation and in fact are multidimensional dragons from some parallel universe?
This is what I’m saying! Maybe it’s like that game from rick and Morty. 1% chance you get a brain tumor, 1% chance you just get put in the wrong body in some way or other cuz fuck you that’s why.
See the problem with “identity” and what is “reality” and what things “are” or “are not” are profoundly complex philosophical questions that have been deeply, deeply thought about by the most brilliant minds of mankind since thousands of years, and they are yet to be solved.
That is why all claims about what something or someone “is” or “is not” is fraught with paradoxes that just collapse on themselves, and all claims to some sort of objective truth and finality are just fantasies.
What matters is to treat people with kindness and respect whoever they are. That’s what I think. Doesn’t mean we are obligated to believe whatever it is they believe. Everyone is free to believe what they want. That includes the right not to believe what someone else believes. That’s what I believe.
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