“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in 10,000 of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory, he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” — Buckminster Fuller
Similar to “make money”, it’s an insidious Orwellian mislead.
“Make money” =~= “profit” =~= “wealth extraction”.
A reminder to people that there is no such thing as a lazy person. Only a person who’s work is not valued under capitalism
My roommate hard at work drinking energy drinks and playing HoI4
Undiagnosed ADHD, their brain is meant to be hunting and gathering
Ask me how I know
Since they don’t seem interested in the answer, I’ll ask.
How do you know?
My ADHD brain is very interested. Is it because of the broken dopamine reward pathways causing us to gravitate towards tasks with more immediate gratification and things like pattern recognition being incredibly well suited to those kind of tasks? I bet it’s got something to do with that. Ooh learning is exciting!
I mean … in a way? When one looks at it from nature’s point of view, no organism has some “given right to live”, all organisms try to survive. But do we, as a society, really want to live like animals, each for themself, without empathy, without solidarity?
I’d argue that our social capabilities are our nature, rather than an exception to nature.
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Life isn’t exactly easy for most of nature. Animals starve and are killed continuously. It has been the same for most of human history. We may have overcome challenges regarding having sufficient resources, but we haven’t overcome all of the obstacles that our selfish animal nature continues to produce in society.
I thought this was about to go a very different way at the beginning.
I’ve always believed that everyone should be able to have, for free, a permanent private living space of at least 80sqft, a reasonably comfortable bed, access to a toilet and shower and associated toiletries, clothing suitable for the weather, water and food (even if only some flavorless nutritional paste), and access to medical care both as-needed and on a regular basis. if you have no ambition in life beyond sitting in that little room staring at the wall and eating soylent, then so be it, for a society to provide any less is immoral
And think of the world we would create if this were the norm.
The majority of people everywhere are ambitious, industrious and want to be useful. So you’d end up with a world full of people doing creative things … and entire groups of people doing creative, inventive and useful things together.
They’d figure out things like building space elevators, new industrial technologies, the cure for cancer (which would probably be redundant because everyone would automatically be able to afford to take care of their health), stabilize global warming, create alternate forms and sources of energy and begin the process of exploring space beyond our own system.
Instead, we have a world where a hundred people own all the wealth, a billion people who think they’re wealthy but aren’t and 7 billion people struggling to get by … and all of them fighting to become king or queen of the world.
The best argument for UBI isn’t that it’s an inherently decent thing to do, it’s that it would legitimately make the world better for rich people too.
UBI would never work with rich people in the world. The unfettered American form of a capitalist system is incompatible with life because the rich will never stop trying to take ALL the money, better world be damned. The system must be changed first.
While I agree with the mindset, I share the same view, some of your details are kinda…barbaric
permanent private living space of at least 80sqft
That’s the size where prison cells float around. Iirc there was a study done that concluded that for an average person to remain mentally healthy they need at least 3-400 sq ft per person. Allowances must be made for families and partners
even if only some flavorless nutritional paste
Shit, that’s been widely considered to be cruel and unusual punishment for prisoners. There’s a balance between “not even good enough for prisoners” and “Lobsters every night”
if you have no ambition in life beyond sitting in that little room staring at the wall and eating soylent
Yeaaa there’s plenty of other ways to entice people to work or to aspire. You don’t need to make people eat flavorless paste, just luxury material goods alone would be enough. Like a decent smartphone, games, attractions (amusement parks, circuses etc), electronics etc. Plus most people want to work anyways just to have something to do
If we enacted your plan as-is, the suicide rate would skyrocket lol
I absolutely love your still very capitalist driven word choices and ideas. It really illustrates the depths the capitalist system influences. “Hey you’re alive, but only deserve bare minimum treatment, an unreasonable amount of space and flavorless food paste! The good life is still only for those that aspire!”
Everyone deserves more, it’s just that the whole things collapses if nobody does any of the things that make it happen. There needs to be a limit on those who are a “drain” on the system, and placing it at some sort of base-level dignity is a practical evil at least until such time where there is so much abundance it won’t matter.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. If you want more than what you need, then it has to come from somewhere.
I’m sure there are better solutions if we assume we can dismantle and rebuild all of society any way we want, along with the attitudes of those who inhabit it, but I think it’s worthwhile to consider how current systems could be improved
I’m not talking about my personal vision of utopia, I’m talking about the bare minimum of a society that can begin to be considered just, even in a very hollow sense
Capitalist Realism.
Correct, the good life is only for those that put in work.
Shit ain’t free.Except for people with generational wealth I guess huh?
What’s your favorite flavor of boot?
Ariat Rebars.
I wear them tho, don’t eat them.
They’re for something called a “Job”. Don’t worry if you’ve never heard of it.
It’s where you trade your skills and work for goods and services, or vouchers for goods and services in the form of money. What’s your favorite flavour of Valenki?How novel that you define worth through work. Some people just take the programming better than others. Just look at the US South; prideful slaves living in poverty working themselves to death.
I didn’t define worth at all. [Edit: not the worth of a person anyway…] Are you stroking out due to lack of producing any work?
So your continued implication that I don’t have a job therefore what I’m saying is irrelevant isn’t a comment on my worth? Good to know.
In other words you want the homless to have a day pass from prison.
There is already free and public media access through libraries.
Are you ready to work and spend almost your whole salary to satisfy the needs of those who don’t? Because work creates all those amenities. If they don’t work, means you need to work more and results of your work be distributed.
We have the means to satisfy everyone’s need but not everyone’s greed.
Without working? Sure, tell me your plan.
Where is it implied that people won’t be working? Just because they are not forced to?
No incentives to work is a good reason not to work.
Funny how people who claim to defend “the working class” can’t comprehend this.
Yes I am willing to take less for myself if those in need receive more.
Most people will work if they are able. Maybe we need more incentives for “shitty” jobs, but few people will want to live at such a base minimum level and do nothing. It is however, infinitely more humane than letting them die in the streets
Do you not have a burning desire in your heart to labor? to derive some meaning out of your life? For nothing but your own enrichment or accomplishment?
Most people won’t work if they are able. This is quite literally the main incentive behind hard work and investments today.
Like if instead of buying an apartment at mortgage I would be able to just receive one, I would pack my savings into crypto, get the space, and play games 24/7 till I die. Maybe I’d get bored and start doing some personal project, but most likely I won’t.
I’m in top 4% earners in my country btw, my taxes pay roughly for ~4 person welfares. If people like me have no incentive to continue working the system you build will collapse super fast.
You could’ve just said you were an elistist shitbag from the beginning and saved everyone time.
Edit: you clearly don’t know what real life is like. Enjoy your privilege. Gfys
I’m working class. You are welfare class.
I’m done here.
I’m in top 4% earners in my country
I’m working class.
Fucking lol.
You’re either a damn liar (nobody does that on the internet!), or you’re owner class. If you’re actually in the top 4%, it’s all the people below you that are working class. You just suck up their labor, you parasite.
Ever hear of the precariat?
It’s growing. It’s coming for you.
I literally work and earn my money. I have less assets than good chunk of “poor” people have.
So I don’t understand how I suck up anyones labour. It’s the opposite actually, those who didn’t try to get education and a decent job are now getting welfare from the state from my progressive taxes.
So why would you be a layabout. I have to many ideas for projects to sit on my ass so i have a hard time imagining the mentality to sit around until i die.
Ideas worth shit. Implementation is everything. And it’s grind in many areas.
Do you think the “richest country in the world” should have people dying of exposure or malnourishment? That they should end up that way because of a bad cosmic dice roll?
Check your privilege. Nobody is self-made in a vacuum.
USA defaultism. I’m not American. And from my perspective you have worse problem to than malnourishment.
Nice dodge, Neo. Very pretty sidestep. Now, answer the fucking question. It’s an easy yes or no.
Easy: I don’t give a fuck. It’s your contrymen, not mine. If you really care you would open a volunteer org by now. But as of now, it’s just a nice talking point. So why should I care if you don’t?
Well, the reality is that it does take work to live, sort of by definition. That is unless you envision life as existing in some sort of techno-uterus, being pumped full of nutrients a la the Matrix. But seriously, a fulfilling life does take work. A social safety net shouldn’t mean there is no expectation to work. There should be both.
I agree 100% with you. Everyone wants to be a socialist/communist until they realize that you still have to put in your fair share. There isn’t some magical system where everything is suddenly free for everyone. Mooching off others isn’t the way ANY economic system works. It’s what we have now, and it’s failing. Just because it’s you instead of some fat cat doesn’t change the fact that someone is trying to get something for free. Everyone works so that everyone prospers. What needs to change is who owns the labor. You work for what you have, not what someone else takes from you. Maybe one day we can live in an automated utopia where all our basic needs are provided for us, but we aren’t there yet, and anyone who says we are is ignoring the other thread they just spent ten minutes writing a comment in about how the AI bubble is about to burst.
Squirrels manage to live without capitalism and “worth”. Their trees aren’t “owned” and leased out by different squirrels that require them to spend a third of their day foraging for acorns not to eat, but to give the treelords so they have the basic need of shelter.
Can you even consider that how you think about life is a direct result of brainwashing?
Hardly worth engaging with someone who immediately starts with a strawman argument. I never said anything about worth or owned. But ironically I think most would consider the squirrel pretty hard working. I don’t think many squirrels expect someone else to build their house.
The worth comment was in reference to the image. All I did was compare a natural system versus our master slave one, challenging your argument. I guess I should have asked you to define work first, but instead you ignored the point and picked out the part that you thought best supported your argument.
Squirrels do work. But their work directly benefits and is essential to their survival. Also, older squirrels built their houses by planting the trees their younger generations now live in… For free.
Hard to argue one way or another with the one sentence statement in the original post. I mentioned that a social safety net is important but that there should be an expectation of work. Work doesn’t necessarily mean toiling in a factory for some wealthy capitalist. Ideally it means work towards self-improvement, which can mean a variety of things, including toiling in a factory.
Isaac Asimov said that in the future one third of the population would be scientists working on new discoveries; one third would be engineers mananging all the technology; and one third would be entertainers.
Well, I think we are on track with the entertainers part, at least.
There are a few folks who don’t deserve to be alive… Unfortunately they don’t need to “earn a living” as they happened to be born silver spoon in hand…
No one “makes money” they transfer it.
